The Irish Sun splashed this morning with the exclusive story of Garry Ryan, 46, and his long-lost daughter Penny Lawrence, 28, who met last year when Lawrence tracked Ryan down. He had been born in Palmerstown in Dublin but moved with his family to the US when he was two. He made Lawrence’s mother Angela pregnant when he was 18 but left her before their baby, Penny, was born.
Angela died when Penny was four and her maternal grandparents, who raised her, died when she was 18. Lawrence said she became “obsessed” with finding her only remaining close blood relative, her father. Last March she tracked him down to Houston, Texas and after several daily phonecalls, flew there from LA to surprise him.
She now reports she is pregnant by him.
Ryan said that he realises that their relationship is illegal and they are afraid that they will be ordered apart by the courts. But he added:
“It’s no different than if I met Penny in a bar. I’d have fallen for her as I have now. It doesn’t feel we are doing anything wrong.”
It shouldn’t be illegal. They are consenting adults who should be allowed to marry.
Lawrence said that when she first made contact with her estranged father, he had told her he had always felt guilty for leaving her and her mother. He explained:
“I was an 18-year-old kid and when Angela told me she was pregnant I wanted to do the right thing. We decided to get married but Angela’s parents disapproved of the relationship and didn’t want me around.”
The interference of Angela's parents was unfortunate, but nothing can be done to change the past. It is the future that matters. We wish them the best as a consanguinamorous couple and family.
UPDATE: If you want to discuss the consanguinamorous relationship between Penny Lawrence and Garry Ryan (or your own) in an environment that isn’t antiequality, you can do so in this thread at the Incestuous Lovers forum. You have to register (no cost) with the forum to be able to read and respond.
![Non-Monogamy Diagram [I:FV]](http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/nonmonogamy2.5.1.gif){kind=link}
The worst mistake they are making is in letting ANYONE know about their relationship, especially in the state of Texas.
ReplyDeleteHello all,
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with the previous poster. But admire their courage in "coming out" like that.
Sadly the world is full of crazy people who simply seem unable to grow up to the fact that love is love, regardless of the relationship. The homosexual community, interracial relationships and others have generally been accepted - when will incestuous ones be accepted as just a variation over what many see as "the norm"?
Perhaps they should have moved to a state where consanguinarmory isn't a crime or isn't prosecuted, such as Rhode Island. On the other hand, the more loving relationships that come out, especially if the people in them are articulate, the more minds will be changed to see that there's nothing wrong with what they are doing.
ReplyDeleteI just wish them both good luck and congratulations on the pregnancy.
ReplyDeleteI think if they never lived together as father-daughter then it is likely that a relationship has emerged. They joined both being adults, aware of their actions and their consequences. In any case if they wanted to live together they had gone to a village where nobody knows them so they can live freely.
ReplyDeleteIt's a beautiful relationship they have I wish them well.
ReplyDeletefreaks. all of you are sick.
ReplyDeletei agree with you there, cant believe how much support this is getting
DeleteI agree also. I am shocked at the support!!
DeleteDon't like it? Don't do it. I wonder what people would think of your love lives, you haters, if we knew all of the details?
DeleteSo sickening to see all the damn support being shown to these incest freaks!! he is her bio dad HELLO!!!!
Deletetinam2, so what? Don't like it? Don't do it. There's probably something about your love live, if you have one, that other people find disgusting.
Deleteinsest... man i feel bad for the child
DeleteThe only reason I feel bad for the child is because thoughtless bigots who say things like that.
DeleteLMFAO!!! I guess there's hicks everywhere you go.
DeleteI wonder if the kid has webbed toes, or a cleft palate.
That's seriously what happens when those kind of people are allowed to breed.
Most children born to close relatives are healthy. you no doubt have ancestors who are examples. Also, this happens regardless of socioeconomic status.
DeleteWhat would you do if, after several years of marriage with children, you discovered that you and your spouse are long lost brother and sister. Don't rush to answer - take a long look at your spouse and think about it.
DeleteThis is truly one of the sickest things I've ever heard in my life. People are insane. This should not be receiving any sort of support whatsoever. Her father half way helped to bring her into this world, and then he thinks it's ok to have sex with her? With a person who shares half of his genetics. Fathers should not act this way regardless of how long they have been in their childs life. In no way, shape, or form will this ever be an "accepted" thought in any normal persons mind. It's truly horrifying.
DeleteLaura, you have only made assertions, not given any reason why these lovebirds shouldn't be allowed to be with each other. You have made it clear you don't like the idea of this relationship. Many people who experience GSA thought the same way before (or even while) they experience GSA. You are free to chose your partner(s), and they should have that same freedom.
DeleteObviously, your knowledge of past and present is limited as you do not know that incestuous relationships were commonplace in the not so distant past in most countries including what would have been considered the sophisticated "empires". Also, it shows your ignorance to state that this child is now going tks be defected physically or emotionally by his genetic abnormality. Children with deformities and serious life threatening illness are born to non incestual couples everyday. A friend of mine has had three children with two different women and two of them have serious health issues... does this mean that because two out of three of his children have serious health issues that he should no longer be allowed to reproduce as they are statistically more inclined to have health issues? The woman in this story was plagued by death and loss, many children have a single parent that struggles and some children have two parents who do not care about each other or them. This child will have no such issue as his parents are in love and remain together despite world wide adversity. This child will have a life full of love and I wish Penny and Garry the very best. They have my deep congratulations and my gratitude for being brave enough to make this story news for all of the people who shouldn't have to hide.
DeleteThanks, Anonymous!
DeleteThat poor child I'd someday going to be told what's going on and is going to be distraught. None of his friends are going to be in the same situation as him. Whether its wrong or not its still pretty much unheard of, the child will feel like an outsider. It's unfair to the child, especially to risk all the deformities and issues he may have.
DeleteWhy would the child be distraught? Sound like what people were probably saying when Barack Obama's mother was pregnant, because there were people prejudiced against interracial relationships. And we all know what happened to that guy!
DeleteIncest is wrong im 17 and something you help came into the world you shouldn't put your junk inside of them especially have a baby with them. I believe in love has no bounds but you are supposed to have a loving relationship with your family not be IN love with them. The relationship is not healthy and marriage equality your fucking descusting for thinking its okay to have sex with relatives.
DeleteIf you think it is wrong, then don't do it. It may not be legal to have any sex at all, depending on where you live. You write as though sex is a bad thing. You'll eventually learn that sex is good, unless you are a really unlucky.
DeleteThank for for such in-depth and iron-clad information, Anonymous of 11/4/2011. It is reasoning skills like yours that will hasten the arrival of full marriage equality.
ReplyDeleteYou people are totally sick! So I agree with anonymous of Nov 4, 2011. I would NEVER sleep with my father even if I haven’t met him in 50 years. I understand homosexuality couple who are totally two different strangers. OMG poor baby when he grows up and finds out that his father is also his grandfather. SICK people!I agree with Marriage equality, but this is called INCEST no matter what!! Genetic Sexual Attraction is a taboo, people! In these times (New Testament), I don’t think God would approve this!
DeleteAnonymous, YOU wouldn't sleep with your father (or so you say... so did many other people who later experienced GSA.) Okay, fine. But we're not all the same. Some people are attracted to women, some attracted to men, some both.
DeleteThe biggest problem a healthy child faces in these circumstances is hateful bigots saying "sick!"
You don't think your God would approve. Fine. Then don't do it.
You are disgusting. And a real piece of work I might add. How many of your younger family members have you forced yourself on to come up with that "logic"?
Delete"...who later experienced GSA"????? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?????
I was raped by my older cousin. It put a spin on my entire life.
He had no problem with it, and has no remorse, but it ruined my life.
Do you also have any kind of idea what kind of problems children of these fucked up situations have?
I know a family who was subjected to this kind of thing. 3 kids were raised to think it's okay to touch eachother.
They were eventually removed from their home, but one girl is in a relationship with her foster sister, the boy (at age 12) anally raped his former foster brother (age 5), and the other girl is a hooker.
And this is okay with you people??
Kayla, what your cousin did was horrible, and I'm sorry anyone gets raped. Rapists should be dealt with severely.
DeleteThat your cousin raped you had NOTHING to do with ANY ***CONSENSUAL*** sex.
I have never forced myself on ANYONE, nor have I engaged in any form of sex EVER with anyone under the age of 18, including when I was under the age of 18.
The biggest problem children of consanguinamorous parents have is BIGOTS who attack them for no good reason.
Notice that this blog is about CONSENTING ADULTS.
"I don’t think God would approve this!"
DeleteFYI... Your GOD created Adam & Eve... How do you think the earth was populated???
I am in no way saying I agree with what these 2 did/are doing (because I don't)... But, when EVE was the only woman on the earth, who do you think her son's mated with???
I think this was a first. I just deleted a comment that wasn't spam. Someone choosing to be anonymous wrote:
ReplyDelete"That is f---ing disgusting, b-----s shouldn't be f---ing their dads, wtf has happened to the world?"
I choose not to have my blog filled with what some consider profanity. I do welcome disagreement, but notice the comment was merely a hateful assertion, without any argument made.
anybody who thinks what they are doing is 'beautiful' or right in any way is seriously cracked. something is wrong with you. there's someone for everyone, and God doesn't set you up with your dad!!!!! that's for sure.
ReplyDeleteThere's something wrong with someone who has a need to badmouth love between consenting adults AND attack other people who support love between consenting adults.
ReplyDeleteAnd which God are you talking about? The God of Abraham, who married and had kids with his sister? The God of Noah, whose grandchildren must have all married and reproduced with each other? The God of Adam and Eve, whose children must have had sex and reproduced with each other or their parents?
Ummm. Ok first of all those Gods that you are talking about did what they did because AT THAT TIME it was OK, we need to reproduce to fill this world. So your comment doesn’t make sense.
DeleteMy comment does make sense. Which God are you talking about, and how do you know that God condemns this? Regardless, we don't live in a theocracy.
Deleteregardless of religion the supporting of father daughter relationships even in cases such as this can lead to serious child abuse if becomes an excepted norm, if you do as you say support any 'loving relationship' where would you draw the line at a father acting on feelings for his daughter, and if you are not willing to agree with it in some instances why make an exception for it here.
DeleteAnonymous, (May 3, 2012 11:18am)... I draw the line at CONSENTING ADULTS. If someone is abusing a child, physically or emotionally, that should remain criminal. But lets consenting adults have the relationships they want.
Deletebut would you not agree that by legalising this it could lead the way to children being put in danger by the practice becoming more socially acceptable.
DeleteNo, I don't. By that reasoning we should outlaw all adult sex.
DeleteThere are people abusing their own children RIGHT NOW in places where consensual adult incest is illegal. Meanwhile, does anyone really think that allowing consenting adults to have their love lives means more adults were prey on children? Society already disapproves of preying on children, and it still happens.
Many things legal for adults are not legal for children, such as joining the military, getting married, purchasing prescription medication, driving automobiles on public roads, buying adult media, working in coal mines, etc. Not every law or norm or sensitivity can cater to young children.
Marriage equality, shut up!;u r fckin sick! Don't u realized what they r doin is the immoral???
DeleteIf you don't want to do it, then don't. It isn't immoral for consenting adults to love each other.
DeleteOk, using your logic marriage equality, how about we let cannibals eat us, or rapists rape us, or child molestors own a daycare. Just because you think it's wrong doesn't mean these poor people can kill rape and molest us! For god sake it would be different if they found out after, but they knew. Just because you are attracted to someone or want to do something does not mean that it's right. That's the difference between civilized and uncivilized people, civilized people put aside the infant like need to have everything they want, and do what is best for society. I'm sorry but right and wrong is more important than an attraction.
DeleteCalm down and think for a minute. We are talking about CONSENTING... ADULTS... HAVING SEX, not rape, not rapists, not children, not child molesters. Don't want to have sex with someone? Don't. But who are you to try to stop someone else from consenting to sex?
Deleteat Marriage Equality....I think you're still living in the old testament,where in a way God the almighty had permitted this kind of relations between same blood because there was no other way to fill all four corners of the earth with the human species.Also don't forget that more we go back on time, especially the time before Jesus Christ, more people used to be healthier and live longer lives since they were closer to perfection....Abraham lived for more than 500 years and Adam lived for 950 or 960 years old....I personally think that it is unaccepted for a father to lay and have sex with his daughter!it gives me the chills and creeps me out....they are ethics and values that people live by, otherwise we would be living in hell....and as we go, we will eventually accept that human can have sexual relations with their pets since we love them so much!This is not love you are talking about and there is nothing beautiful in it;but most importantly we shouldn't encourage those people in doing soo.Just my opinion!Thanxxx
ReplyDeleteIf I'm living in the Old Testament, can you tell me where the prohibition is in the New Testament, and what relevance this has for countries that are not Christian theocracies?
ReplyDeleteIncest in the Bible does not entirely overlap with the definition of incest in many modern nations. The Bible does not, for example, forbid cousins from marrying, but it does prohibit sexual relations with several other close relatives. Read the Bible and do some research yourself.
DeleteNo, if you are making the claim, YOU do the research. Thank you.
DeleteObviously Anonymous DID do the research if they said that with confidence, and then telling you to go look for yourself. Seriously...
DeletePeople make claims about what the Bible teaches all of the time that are false. If there is so much confidence, simply quote the passages in their context.
DeleteIt doesn't matter anyway.
u r sick
DeleteThanks for that intelligent analysis, far. With reasoning like that, bigotry against consanguinamory will be dying off sooner rather than later, thankfully.
DeleteCan't remember who wrote it or when but I have to agree with the statement about where does it end next? Marriage Equality will be all for marring people with pets? this web site in it's entirety is a can of worms. I agree with ME when it was said if your God wouldn't approve then don't do it, but I mean when every piece of literature out there is telling you that more often then not genetics don't mix well and your going to produce kids with special needs or "if there is a defect then we will terminate the pregnancy" I mean why chance it? Sure you can have birth defects with none family members but obviously the risks are far less.... at the end of the day people will do what people want to do no matter what the rest of the world thinks but at least try imagining being that kid (defect or not) this day in age where kids are cruel and getting more cruel by the day cause you know somehow it will get out. Aren't we supposed to love our kids more then our selves even if it means finding love else where?
ReplyDeleteThank you, anonymous. Where does it end? Well what's wrong with letting consenting adults have their relationships?
DeleteAs far as genetics... You do know that most sex does not result in a birth, right? That most sex is not had to reproduce? That some people can't have children? That without both working testicles and working ovaries being involved there is NO chance of a baby? We do not deny people their rights to sex or marriage based on their lack of ability or desire to have children. Also, most births to close relatives produce healthy children.
You cite bullying by others are a reason not to have kids and to deny someone marriage? Why not, oh, PUNISH BULLIES? Or fight the idea that there is anything wrong with this in the first place?
They are purposely and knowingly creating something and going 3 months in to get an abortion...thats wrong...I believe in abortion but not like this...shes ignorant and he's a pig of a man...
DeleteAnd will be devastated of that happens... I'm sure they are looking at it as a fluke test though you must be right. My god, it is their choice. You live in America where you are free to get an abortion almost anywhere you want. These people deserve the same rights. You say you believe in abortion bit have a problem with an abortion of a child that will have birth defects as opposed to what? Most abortions are teenagers who aren't ready.... they knew full well that they aren't ready for children and "purposely and knowingly" had sex... your argument comes down to this. I believe in the freedom to have an abortion for no good reason other than selfishness and fear on the part of the parents not for the good of the child. Americans need to remember that the freedom we have to blog, have abortions, gather publicly and all the others are given to us all. We don't have to like it but we must respect each others freedom.
DeleteI fully accept homosexuality and 100% think they deserve the rights as anyone else in this world does, but when two blood relatives have a sexual relationship and want to have a baby, it is downright disgusting! and to encourage them?? seriously? what kind of healthy relationship is that? they are not helping the gene pool with this incestuous act. How can you sit there and say that their love is natural and should be accepted? i would like to know where you draw the line...perhaps at humans wanting to have a sexual relationship with a non-living object or animal?....your gross
ReplyDeleteIf it is disgusting to you, then don't do it. We don't make laws for everyone based on your disgust. I draw the line at CONSENTING ADULTS. What is wrong with that?
DeleteThis is so messed up. you people are disgusting how could you support this? this is wrong in every way possible. how can you bring that child into the world also and tell it the truth...wow what is this world coming to?
ReplyDeleteIf it is disgusting to you, then don't do it.
Delete"Marriage equality" as you so call your self, should reflect on the type of world you want furure generations to live in. if you can not see goose bumps on your skin JUST THINKING about a father undressing his daughter kissing her and ejaculating in her, and she wakes up and make him breakfast. Then my friend you need serious psychological attention im talkin E.R because people like you are categorized with radical muslims who think killing is right.
DeleteI want a world in which consenting adults are free to love and share their lives.
DeleteThe father-daughter scenario you describe sounds just fine. You yourself seem to want to think about it. Why don't you add even more detail?
Your trying to equate support of consensual relationships to killing is very strange.
I think that is very wrong, I'm not hating. I mean I'm a lesbian. I'm opened minded to anything. But this is just over the line. I mean how do they think the mother feels about her daughter dating her father? I know shes dead but still. This will hurt the baby in some way. Gays are one thing the world is just not starting to live with them. But it's still hard for them. The kids a gay couple has could be bullied in school still. But mean how will kids handle daughter and father having a kid? Highschool will be hell for this child. But maybe the world will change by then.
ReplyDeleteEven if her mother was alive, it isn't up to her. Many people have relationships to which their parents object. Bullying need to be deal with. We don't let bullies run our lives.
DeleteSo Marriage Equality, would you have sec with your children?
ReplyDeleteSex*
DeleteThis isn't about what I want or what I would do. I do not want to have another man as my lifelong lover, but I support the rights of other men to marry each other. My personal feelings or desires are not relevant to whether someone else should be able to share love, sex, residence, and marriage.
DeleteThe situation being discussed involves Genetic Sexual Attraction. They didn't have a social relationship as parent-child. It is easy for say "I'd never do that" and many people who've experienced GSA thought that way... until they experienced GSA. GSA is a normal, natural reaction to the circumstances.
For the record, I do not have kids.
They're selfish to bring a child into the world knowing it could be severely disabled, whether you believe in the bible or not there's a reason it's not a social norm. Calling incest by another name doesn't make it any less perverted. People in these relationships need help, obviously GSA is a serious condition and should not be encouraged. In every one of these "love" stories, they feel sick with guilt because they're subconscious KNOWS its wrong. I can only pray for the people in these relationships, only a relationship with Jesus can help them be a peace with the situation. Or even a good therapist would be better than nothing, it's just natural human emotion being distorted.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, ANY child "could" be severely disabled. Unless this family knows they are carrying a serious genetic disease, the odds are very high a child of theirs will be healthy. The negative feelings you cite are a result of cultural conditioning. People who have experienced GSA have been happy together without negative feelings before finding out their biological relation.
DeleteThis is disgusting. However, everyone is in charge of their own soul and as for their life, they will do with it what they choose. Wether it was right or wrong will be decided after death, by God. I just feel sorry for the kid, though...,
DeleteActually, aside from 'cultural conditioning', which is very true, there are biological and evolutionary factors at play that usually prevent sexual desire between relatives that are too close, such as siblings and parent/child. Studies show that while women are fertile, the scent of male sweat is appealing (probably gives a sense of security, that he will work hard to provide for his family) but the scent of her father or brother was repulsive. This has great genetic importance, obviously. On another note, I can't argue with the 'consenting adult' part, but I do have issues with them bringing a child into the relationship. The psychological and physical issues will be tremendous. I think if I were to have this desire to have a family with my father, I would get an egg donor, and NEVER tell the child or anyone. If you truly wanted to have a 'normal' happy family. Why go public? I think it's selfish to not put the child first.
DeleteWhy go public? Perhaps to fight bigotry, which is the biggest problem any child in these situations faces. Stop the hating, and guess what... the children are better off! We should never use hate as an excuse to keep bigotry in place.
DeleteThey say love is a beautiful thing... But not in this situation, did they even think about the baby? There is a reason why it's not allowed, not just because the New Born could have a birth defect. But for your own psyce....
ReplyDeleteThe people who say congrats and have a happy life, those aren't well!
I never believed in God before, but please let him in any way interfer!
In a way I feel sorry for penny, because aparently she never loved before.. She is really confused and her sorry excuse for a 'dad' would never had sex with her if hè had any sence of fatherly love.., he knew he had a child. Sick bastard! Sorry for my language!!
Amber Bruitzman from Holland
Amber, most children born to consanguineous parents are healthy. As long as they are happy together, what difference does it make to your life?
DeleteTO all you people posting about god and the bible, I am sorry but you're full of poop!! How can you say that its okay to believe something at one time but not at another.. funny how religions like paganism.. (which say nothing about incest.. and really dont focus on sex at all because there is no reason to force repression) which stay consistent and are older than yours are considered blasphemy.. but your flip floppy religion allows you bastards to do what ever you please.. one day I will marry my Wife, and yes I am a woman.. who are you to say you dont understand them.. their love, you aren't supposed to judge either.. but the bible is a book of judgement.. you see, there is no arguing with Christians.. you're all like Romney.. you have at one time or another agreed and disagreed with every scenario.. & if we don't need to reproduce the same way then why can't homosexuals just be accepted.. if 'god' makes someone this way and you know.. things are okay at one time.. then not at another... why can't gay marriage just be okay.. yeah maybe I will go write a new book for the bible that says its okay, and claim to be the first queer profit... & I bet its as simple as that.. cause you're all so Fing retarded.
ReplyDeleteOut of interest marriage equality, do you support the exploration of all social boundaries, or only those you consider unjust? e.g. Where do you stand on use of genetically modified foods, stem cell research, the abolition of mandatory animal testing for regulatory approval of new drugs?
ReplyDeleteI support such exploration in general, but the purpose of this blog is to argue for full marriage equality and to discuss directly related issues, such as general relationship rights, gender equality, and one's freedom over their own body.
DeleteDear Marriage Equality,
ReplyDeleteI feel that homosexuals are free to be with whomever they want. I believe this primarily because it is scientifically proven that those who have homosexual tendencies have different hormones that allow them to feel in such a way. Therefore, if your body is telling you to sexually appeal to a certain gender, then you shouldn't be kept from doing so. Now, I understand that Penny had never met her father until adulthood. But, what if he was a father figure for her in childhood? Would it change your beliefs? Because you use the term 'consenting adults' quite firmly. I am open to many beliefs, but to have sex with your own child? I wouldn't even really see a problem with it if the whole situation didn't seem quite shady. For instance, the fact that the father Gary had sex with the mother and the daughter in his lifetime. Has he no compassion for his deceased lover with who he had a daughter with? She must be turning in her grave at the very thought of it. I think when people say 'they are in a sexual relationship', they don't really understand what that means. I feel sorry for Penny because she is so naïve and is most likely going to get hurt in the end. We live in a world of pschycos and this pedophile of a man just might be one of them.
Pedophiles are people who are attracted to young children. Penny is an adult. Preying on children and having consensual sex with another adult are very different things. You write as though sex is a bad thing. Penny's mother wanted to have sex with him; why is it a surprise if Penny does? While the sociological dynamics would be different if he had raised her, the law should not interfere either way, because an adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults.
DeleteOk I am atheist and usually when I hear the phrase two consenting adults I would agree, but there is a reason why a father and daughter should not sleep together even if they are consenting, adults who met as such. They are the same person, the same gene pool. the point of having children is to pass on your genes to the next generation after you die. Your children are a part of you. So by perverting this cycle you are messing with nature. I don't think there are many cases of animals mating with their parents. Also while not fully guaranteed, incest vastly increases the chance of recessive genes to show up in the child, increasing his/her chance for having birth defects. The parents should be responsible and not create a child susceptible to birth defects. There is a reason why this is considered taboo.
ReplyDeleteMost births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease.
Deleteso are you(Marriage equality) saying that its ok to have sex with your kids(who are old enough), if you are attracted to them. one other point, the only reason why she is in love with him is because she has no one else and she is worried that he would leave her too.
DeleteWhat I'm saying is that it is OK and should not be illegal for an adult to have sex with ANY consenting adults. It is nobody else's business.
DeleteMarriage Equality.... I see no problem with incest whatsover (btw, whats perfectly permissible in some religions is considered incest in others ... e.g muslims permit marriage between all first cousins but certain denominations in christianity do not...and this kills the so called gene pool argument also....although it didnt need killing since the point is not so much "marriage and production of children" (which should be stopped in any case ...there are 7 billion of us greedy creatures already)....the point is whether there is something inherently wrong in "incestuous" sex?). I digressed. I am interested in knowing what your opinion is about what we should take as the definition of "adult" ? And why ?
ReplyDeleteNo, there is nothing inherently wrong with incestuous sex. As far as "adult," various places have differing laws on the age of consent, and it is not the focus of this blog to change age of consent laws, as long as they consider someone and adult by age 18.
DeleteI almost understand where this view point is coming from. Once you start saying that some people shouldn't get married (people who are related) just because society says it's a no-no, where do you stop? Gay, polyamorous, genderqueer, society may not approve of them getting married, does that mean they shouldn't be allowed? It's hard to say some people should be allowed to get married and some shouldn't just because of x,y,z.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I don't really think people who are related should be taking the risk of having children. Not for the bullying that's been mentioned, simply because of the risks involved. I don't know the likelihoods or percentages, but most people disapprove if they see someone smoking while they're pregnant. I think doing anything that could possibly harm a baby isn't something people should be doing, if it can be helped.
They're old enough to make their own decisions, but I hope for the child's sake that they find somewhere they're not known and that people forget about it before the child is old enough to understand and be influenced by the predujices of others.
There is no other word for this besides, DISGUSTING. -.-
ReplyDeleteJG, that you find it disgusting has no relevance to the situation. I can find people disgusted by YOUR love life. If you have one.
DeleteCan guarantee that will be but a minuscule number of people, compared with the overwhelming number who find incest disgusting.
DeleteI did a win.
You did a fail. Rights are not denied because of minority status.
DeleteI can ignore the incest in the relationship, and I do consider it incest as they knew from the beginning what their relationship to each other was. What bothers me is that they allowed a child to be created knowing the risks of birth defects. While I am relieved to hear that their child seems fine. The problem is that defects could be seen in the child's children. There is also the concern of the psychological effects their relationship will have on their child. Now that it has been in the news, I really don't think they can raise the child in Houston. Families there won't forget, and the information will be passed on to children. Not to mention if the child learns of the relationship, he/she will need to find a way to reconcile their relationship to the social taboo. It's unfair to the child. They should have chosen adoption if they wanted a child.
ReplyDeletePeople used to say this about interracial and gay parents. The biggest problem appears to the the bigotry of others. It is the bigots who should be criticized, not the loving parents.
DeleteI am a Christian and do live my life to the best of my ability to show that in all that I do. I try not to judge and I do look at both sides of everything. It does not say you can not be with a family member in the bible. In fact if you are a Christian u believe we come from two people. We are all then a result from incest. If you look through out history people were to marry others in their social group which means that as time passed they were marrying family members. What I see here are two conflicting opinions. Both discuss taboo. One who seems to think a proven disorder. Yes it is considered a disorder is taboo. Another believes the social norm of not sleepig with family memebers is taboo. I believe that the things I see wrong with this picture is the poor child. While u might think people that post that they are disgusted with this situation are bigots nine the less this child will be subjected to that. This child will not be given a normal life due to this fact. Just because the test came back defect free does not mean this child is not going to be born with some disability or physical abnormality. If the child is born healthy ( and I pray with all my muggy that it is) who is to say their are not some dormant genes that will come out in other generations. This child can still be punished after the fact. Then get into the legal aspect. It's illegal and if you don't like following the law get out its that simple. If you don't agree with the laws that have been put forth then sorry for you. If they go to prison and have their child taken away as a consequence of incest ( an illigal act) then it is somethin they will have to face. I do feel that she needs help. She has faced so much loss and I am dearly sorry for all her loss. She needs a father and she didn't get that. Maybe had she series help she might have fallen for someone else. Stating that she was obsessed with finding her father shows that she longed for that connection. Shame on him for acting on his sexual reaction so quickly. Wish that baby the best yall have a blessed day
ReplyDeleteSo again, the potential problems are with how people react. Perhaps people should react differently?
DeleteI wrote the last post. After reading other post I do want to know why someone's vulgar opinion (as stupid as it was) was deleted however there is someone writing a post about how Christians are bastards and yet that stays. I thought that one persons opinion was as valued as another. This is one thing that I face as a Christian people cry that we are judgemental bigots. They however sure do judge a whole religion because they do not agree with it. Paganism is a religion I have studied (my ex was of a pagan religion) and it is a very sexual religion. I guess it various on your definition of pagan since now a days anything Christian falls into this category. Granted it doesn't discuss incest granted it is older then what scientist can prove the Christian religion to be however I am not stating that you are wrong for being a homosexual nor am I calling you names (by the way good luck on your marriage) I do not appreciate you calling all of us Christians bigots and bastards. I live my life because I only have one person to answer to. He said do not judge he said to love thy neighbor. I have homosexual friends I have friends of various religion and every single one of them will tell you I do not fit that horrid description that you wrote.
ReplyDeleteI have not called anyone a bastard, and I only all bigots bigots. I do not dismiss or attack any religion as a whole. I support the freedom of religion.
DeleteRegarding deleted comments... I don't recall that I have deleted any comments for disagreeing with me. On the contrary, I want everyone to see how weak the arguments against equality are. I have only deleted comments that were nothing more than advertisements. Someone may have deleted their own comment.
Thank you for your comments.
I didn't say you. It's a comment further up
DeleteI didn't read every comment. However I would like to respond to those who are bashing this couple. Like the stereotype of Christianity views on different religions, people in general tend to judge what they do not understand. We cannot stop the emotional and spiritual bond that is brought on by Genetic Sexual Attraction. It is a psychological effect brought on by that close relative being absent during the most important impressionable years of life. So you say, "If its 'psychological' go to a therapist." Well, if everyone in the entire world went through some sort of mental exam it is theorized that over 80% of the world population would be diagnosed with some sort of mental disorder.
ReplyDeleteSo, here I am speaking as a daughter experiencing GSA. It is not "sick" or "gross" or all that crap. In the natural animal kingdom it wouldn't matter what relation we were. Anything to produce offspring is necessary. However, I stay away from the physical part because that is NOT what GSA is about. Many people do not even call it Genetic Sexual Attraction. A lot of people call it Genetic Attraction or GA.
It is a pity for anyone who has not experience that honest kind of love. Really, what kind of person would not want to fall in love with their genetic copy (or original)? Surely only a person which loathes himself or herself. Imagine being able to place every card out on the table in complete exposure ASAP and being undoubtedly accepted and loved for who you are every day no matter mood or change or whatever else? And to know that person also shares those same personality flaws (that your friends may not be able stand) or corky characteristics and same facial features? That is what GSA is, not incest.
....Its still classed as incest.
DeleteYes, by some it is, even though it is not incest from a sociological perspective, only physical. Regardless, an adult should be free to love other consenting adults.
DeleteIt is incest.
DeletePainting a horse white with black stripes will not make it a zebra, for it is still a horse.
Are you unwilling to admit there is a different dynamic between people who meet for the first time as adults and people who were raised in the same home or by one another?
DeleteAnd I take it you wouldn't say it is incest if adopted or stepsiblings, with no biological relation, were lovers?
No blood relation = No incest
DeleteSome laws say otherwise in their anti-consanguinamory fervor. They criminalize under "incest" laws relations between adopted or step relatives. I say consenting adults should be allowed to be together, without trying to place arbitrary limits on that. Let them decide for themselves.
DeleteSo lets just say GSA is accepted. Now just wait for the sickos already out there to use and abuse this new norm to groom their young children to eventually become their accepted partner? Evil just waits for a chance. With norms agaisnt this and the help of laws even though it doesnt always seem fair it can atleast deter some from trying it. Sorry but sometimes its time for two consenting adults to be adults and resist their urges and do whats right.
ReplyDeleteWhat is "right" and "wrong"? People have these moral codes to live by and no matter what religion we are, we know that laws and morale and the thought process of right and wrong are man made... If we were raised with a completely different hardware system of thought we may believe that murder can be justifiable, such as the Nordic Vikings believed for thousands of years (may I note that they flourished in nearly every way possible). The fact that people like you use the term "evil" and "right" only displays your ignorance even more. Society said the same thing about gays and lesbians having 'fakes' in their midst to satisfy their sick pleasures. That already happens in society today.
DeleteOk life isn't fair did not state anything that speaks ignorant on her behalf she is curious and brings a valid point. I find it funny that you bring the Nordic vikings up when in all reality the world was different and killing was done due to wanting to conquer and a belief that they were right. If you believe it was ok for them to murder just because they assumed they were right then do you believe 911 was ok because they believed they were right. That comment is disgusting to say the least. If someone came up to your lived one and killed them violently would it be ok because he believes he is right. No sometimes social rightness is put there for a reason. Yes there can be evil with this gsa. Now correct me if I am wrong but when you described the difference between gsa and ga it was mostly the physical contact correct. Ga means that u have found someone you are related to attractive but does not mean you are going to have a sexual relation with them correct. So this couple do the have ga or just two adults that decided they cared for each other. Now Luke I said before what they do SIS their business but if they don't like the laws that have been put forth by this country that I love then get out go somewhere where this is legal and live your life. I understand where life is not fair is coming from with people today this gsa is a little unnerving. There are people that would take advantage of this mold and brainwashed a young girl it happens all the time. Look at tx a pastor who brainwashed people onto giving him their daughters for him to marry and the girls think its ok. Is it right no is it evil yes its horrible. However life isn't fair this story isn't that case where he molded her to have those feelings. Granted had she had a father in her life things might have been different for the poor girl who has lost so much already
DeleteLife isn't fair... GSA specifically involves people who were not raise together or by each other, so grooming is not a possibility with GSA. Also, arguments like yours indicate that if we just banned all sex, there would be no sexual assault.
DeleteSex between close relatives, whether GSA was involved or not, is legal in Rhode Island and many countries. Has it resulted in an increase in child abuse? I don't think so.
Marriage equality I have read ur blog for the first time the other day and I must say thank you u do enjoy your point of view. I however can see where it will still be used as an excuse. I am not saying shame on the people that have experience this I am saying that eventually this will be an excuse. I guess again it goes to the way people think and how do you change thinking as such.
DeleteIt seems selfish to have children in their circumstances. They are significantly more likely to suffer from disabilities as a result of their parentage and will probably find it very difficult to integrate into society when people find out about the relationship of their parents.
ReplyDeleteEver hear about reproductive rights?
DeleteMost children born to close relatives are healthy, and if you're worried about how the children will be treated then... how about treating them, and their parents, with respect and kindness instead of hate?
Ok again as I have stated before I am not here to judge. It is proven that it is an increased possibility of disabilities due to the close genitic make up. With that being said incest is not the only way for increase possibility of disabilities with reproduction. I do however have a co worker that was told when she married her husband they had blood work done and they were told there is a 50% chance of disabilities out of the four they had two that did have severe disabilities. They however were not told that they couldn't reproduce. The only problem I see with this story is that it is illegal in Texas and they should face any and possibly all the charges. He didn't have a bond with her as his daughter not did he care enough to seek help for her so she could come to terms with so much loss in her young life. I do believe she is a victim. One of her own choice though. I also agree all the people on here stating like I did that they are a Christian and this and that should remember thou without sin cast the first stone.
DeleteActually to the one who argues about my viking statement I meant in their specific culture, not the wars the Norse people were in. I am a Norse Culture studies major and I would like to provide you some knowledge... Taken out of the context words of Robert Ferguson who is a world renowned historian, "... the requirement that manslaughter be declared in front of witnesses within a specific time after the killing. The law obliged the killer to report the deed to the first person he or she met afterwards, although they could, if they wish, avail themselves of an exemption that allowed them to pass by two houses - but not a third, before making their confession. If the proper procedures were followed, the killing could be atoned for by compensation. Murder, on the other hand, was a dishonorable act, committed in secret, unacknowledged and liable to set a train a cycle of revenge killings... Unannounced killings were, by definition, murder."
ReplyDeleteSo the historian continues on with the Norse people's law allowing the individual to justify his or her own action in a way that presents honesty. The man who killed could have a reason, and if society saw that reason feasible then accepted it as what is was and moved on with life. THAT was the reason I mentioned the Nordic's killing laws. Because one man's wrong could be another man's right. Tisk tisk on those who don't know what they're talking about... GSA being one man's wrong is another man's right.
Whats more disturbing than the news is people actually support it. SICK.
ReplyDeleteOf course people support the rights of consenting adults to be together. You might find something disturbing, but there are things you do that people find disturbing, too. For example, I find it disturbing that someone would feel the need to speak out against love.
DeleteLioness, you argue that:
ReplyDelete"It is a pity for anyone who has not experience that honest kind of love. Really, what kind of person would not want to fall in love with their genetic copy (or original)?"
I am a heterosexual woman who has a mother and father and a boyfriend. You argue that "Surely only a person which loathes himself or herself". I can safely say that I do not loathe myself, nor do a regard my mutually respecting relationship with my boyfriend (who is of no relationship to me) a piteous affair as he is not my "genetic copy". I can't help but feel that those who advocate this behaviour all seem to have some sort of attachment or abandonment issues. Perhaps I am wrong, but I am almost insulted that you deem it a pity that the majority of us will not experience an incestuous relationship with our father.
There is a reason that we have the same quirks as our parents as they are a big influence on our lives, it is these quirks that other non-related people fall in love with and want to have a share in, whether you are of different genders, same genders or have an age gap. It does not mean that we need to be with someone who biologically will have similar personalities.
It is inevitable that upon meeting these two individuals felt an attraction, but that has possibly been miscontrued as sexual feelings.
More importantly, whereas I have previously attempted to not engage in forceful language I think it IS wrong to deliberately concieve a child with the knowing intention to abort it if there are defects. It is unfair to claim that a life is not worth continuing just because it will be a struggle for the parents to look after it. Or is it that they do not want to be proved right that incest leads to an increased risk of producing a child with special needs?
My main problem with your comment lioness is that you judge people like me for NOT having a relationship with my father.
And, marriage equality, would you therefore believe it is perfectly acceptable for a mother and father to raise a child and once the child is of sexual consenting age (16 in the UK) that the father is therefore allowed to embark on a relationship with that child? Happy 16th Birthday.
And what about the mother? You say it is not her business (i'm talking here of all relationships of this description, not particularly of Lawrence and Ryan) but surely in some situations it would be a case of infidelity. But you seem to think that's fine.
If you have sex with your (I speak here of the plural, generic 'you') daughter and concieve a child is it then acceptable for your daughter to have sex with her son and so on and so forth?
I don't speak for Lioness. I apologize for not responding to this earlier.
DeleteI think age of consent laws should be consistent. If a 16 year-old can consent to sex with a 40 year-old who is a complete stranger, than I don't see why a 16 year-old shouldn't be free to consent to sex with a close relative who is 40. I ALSO think it should be prosecutable child abuse fail to raise a child to be an INDEPENDENT adult, and "grooming" would be such abuse, in my opinion.
I do not support violating existing vows to others, but cheating is not a crime in most places. In most of the US, it doesn't even have any effect on divorce rulings.
Your last statement ignores the fact that most people are not attracted to close family members, so most people are not going to want to have ongoing sexual relationships with close family members, never mind have children with them.
I have not seen a compelling reason, that is consistently applied, for denying an adult the right to share love, sex, residence, or marriage with ANY consenting adults.
Sadly, I'm happy for her 'AS A MOTHER' because mothers should always feel a child are a gift from God. Doesn't necessarily mean the thought of a daughter and father who are physically/emotionally attracted is all right. That's crossing the line either way you look at it; relationship-wise or/and adulthood.
ReplyDeleteJust a thought, you tell me in vice versa, it's ok for a male adult who turns out to be, for instance, 18-yr-old son who's physically and emotionally attracted to his 36-yr-old mom?? Of course, it's 'ADULTHOOD' as you say it is, then you must agree to it?
Another situation, now think about it, if a child at age 15-16 is deeply in love with his parent(same situation--never met, 'love at first sight') and they secretly do things together until child is legally 18, would you okayed it even after all those years of so called and to include, both willingly to do so.
You can't say they are too young to understand love at 14 when 'love' comes in every way form at anytime even at the youngest age. And, THEN wasn't their adulthood but until they turn legal, would still you be acceptable?
I would be just as supportive of any 18 year-old and 36 year-old who want to be lovers, whether the 18 year-old is male or female, and whether the 36 year-old is male or female. Male-female, female-male, male-male, female-female. If that is what they want, they should be free to share that love.
DeleteI am against "grooming" and I am not here advocating age of consent laws, which do vary from place to place.
You may want to read what I wrote here.
i wonder how many limbs the baby has.
ReplyDeleteProbably four, like just about any other child born to close relatives.
DeleteI wonder how many IQ points bigots need before they lose their ignorance?
I wonder if there is a correlation between IQ score and belief that incest is ok. I'm guessing a strong negative correlation exists. To interpret that for you, people that think incest is acceptable most likely have strong mental issues.
DeleteI'm still waiting for a good reason why consensual adult sex would not be "acceptable" in terms of the law or culture. Surely, if my IQ is so low, you will be able to give me one that I haven't already shown to be an excuse for wanting to impose your personal prejudice on consenting lovers.
DeleteI'm still waiting for a good reason why it should be deemed acceptable to partake in incestuous relationships.
DeleteThe laws against it are backed up by scientific facts i.e. a high rate of physical and health defects including loss of immune system function, higher infant mortality and increased genetic disorders. There's a few reasons for you. Whereas your argument is just formed of repetitive comments such as "they're consenting adults", "people should be able to do what they want" which, frankly, in no way forms a valid argument, nor outweigh the reasons behind why it is illegal and should remain that way.
Your idea of society would mean a bleak future for the human race, where infant mortality and defects would be rife, and where a single simple virus could mean the death of tens of millions rather than a smaller percentage. And people could just go around doing as they wish, regardless of the consequences. Perhaps you should take up a cause that would actually be beneficial to society, however having said that, I don't think such causes would benefit from people like you.
We generally let consenting adults do what they want with each other. Courts and laws recognize the right to consensual sex, freedom of association, right to privacy, and relationship rights in general.
DeleteThe laws were put in place for power and religious reasons. NOW, some armchair eugenicists claim it is for genetic reasons. But in places like Germany, it is legal to make children with your close relative through IVF or artificial insemination. In other words, a brother's sperm can be placed into hi sister to join with her egg. THAT is legal. It is illegal for them to have sex. And if you want to take this line of argument, then I take it you would support same-gender consanguinamory?
REAL people are being hurt by these hateful laws against love. THAT is why I am here. Helping people get over their ignorance sooner rather than later will help many people.
Are you trying to tell me that you would start having sex with your close relatives and making children with them, but you are holding back because of the law? People are ALREADY in these relationships, and the numbers aren't likely to increase just because the persecution stops. People are attracted or they aren't. Repealing laws against gays and lesbians hasn't made any more people gay or lesbian.
Do you support imposing laws against people with genetic diseases so that they can't have biological children?
"But in places like Germany, it is legal to make children with your close relative through IVF or artificial insemination." This just isn't true.
Delete"NOW, some armchair eugenicists claim it is for genetic reasons." Just no, they aren't claiming anything, stop just making things up, the laws are based on hard facts.
"Are you trying to tell me that you would start having sex with your close relatives and making children with them, but you are holding back because of the law?" hahaha what? Don't try and twist what I am saying, but no I would not. You're just being ridiculous now.
"People are ALREADY in these relationships" How does this make it ok?
" and the numbers aren't likely to increase just because the persecution stops" It would be completely irresponsible to take the risk.
" Repealing laws against gays and lesbians hasn't made any more people gay or lesbian." Completely different topic, and I'm sure 99% of homosexual people would be offended at you comparing their relationships to incestuous ones.
"Do you support imposing laws against people with genetic diseases so that they can't have biological children?" No, again, this is a completely different topic.
So basically you have just made up some sort of bullshit conspiracy theory, backed up by completely made up facts. Nice one.
Yes, it is true:
Deletehttp://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-reason-german-law-against.html
How many places actually have laws against artificial insemination by a close relative? Not many.
Laws against consanguinamory were in place long before any understanding about genetics. It has to do with power and religion.
YOU were the one trying to say that everyone would be making babies with close relatives if the laws were not in place, but the evidence is against you. Again, you can check in Rhode Island, other states, and many countries.
Consensual adults relationships are OK by default. We let adults make their own choices.
People usually have sex based on attraction. Repealing laws criminalizing consensual sex between close relatives will not make more close relatives attracted to each other.
You are dodging my questions. If you are only going to spout your prejudice and not contribute to an actual discussion, I am going to start deleting your comments. If consanguinamory should be illegal because of, we'll say, a 5% chance that a child will be disabled (should they decide to have a child), then please explain whether or not you believe:
1. People with serious known genetic conditions with a 10%, 25%, or 50% chance of passing along the conditions to children should be banned from having sex;
2. Same-gender sex between close relatives should be illegal.
3. Sex between close relatives too old or otherwise unable to have children should be illegal.
oh no, please don't delete my comments, they mean so much to me!
Deletelol.
Pretty sure i answered the only question you asked me in the last comment, but:
1. as long as they're not related.
2. yes.
3. yes.
No matter how you spin it, you cannot rationalise incestuous relationships. And they will forever be illegal for good reasons. Good day to you sir/madam/weird inbred hybrid.
1. So you'd allow someone with a GREATER probability of having disabled children to have sex, but not close relatives who have a lower probability?
Delete2. You'd ban same-gender sex even though there is no chance of having disabled children.
3. Same here.
Okay, so you are not being honest when you say your objection has to do with the risk of genetic defect. Looks like you are simply hateful. Your prejudices are no reason to prevent others from loving each other as they want.
1. They can't help having a genetic condition. People that are related who purposely have children are taking that unnecessary, irresponsible risk.
Delete2. Because they are related.
3. You're disagreeing with the whole principle of your site then?
By "same here" I meant point 3 was the same as point 2.
DeleteSo again, we see that your real problem is consenting adults having sex, and citing birth defects was just an excuse for you to try to make it seem like your opinion was anything other than bigotry. We're not all going to want each other's sex lives. One person will be disgusted by what some else wants. And that's not a problem, unless someone wants to keep their personal disgust in law to prevent other consenting adults from loving each other as they want. Please reconsider your position.
Clearly you don't understand how the numbering system works...
DeleteAnyway, I never said the only problem I had with it was because of birth defects, yet again you are twisting my words to suit your pathetic argument. I was merely giving examples as to why the law is in place to stop this sort of thing. Yet, I am still waiting for you to provide a reason as to why you believe incestuous relationships should be allowed, without using made up words and facts.
And I don't consider myself a bigot for backing up a law that exists for very good reasons (Health AND moral).
Please reconsider your position.
Thanks for conceding that your birth defects argument is invalid.
DeleteI'm waiting for good reasons to deny consenting adults their right to be together. You are the one who wants to restrict the freedom of others, so you should have the burden of proof.
I think sex between ANY consenting adults should be allow. Sex is generally a positive thing that people enjoy and benefit from, unless they are doing it wrong.
If you're merely going to spout your prejudice again, don't bother. We've already read it.
How did I concede that my argument was invalid? I said it was a part of the reason why it is illegal, and not the only reason I am opposed to it, YET AGAIN you are taking what I say and rewriting it to suit your argument. You are the one opposing a law that is already in place, so I feel like you are the one that should have "the burden of proof".
DeleteThere are many good reasons scattered all over this page, you are just choosing to ignore the facts like some religious fanatic who denies countless proven scientific facts because they don't fit in with their own ridiculous beliefs.
If you're merely going to spout your retarded opinions without backing yourself up with a valid argument, don't bother. We've already read it.
I am Quaid.
You did concede your argument, whether you want to admit or not. Please, no more assertions if prejudice. If you have nothing else to add, move on.
DeleteYou're completely deluded. And, for the first time, you're right, I have nothing else to add, I have already exposed you for the moron you are.
DeleteI am Quaid.
is the OP by any chance related to the McPoyles? http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/1992927137_5243b955ef.jpg
ReplyDeleteI have no qualms with people's sexual orientation (heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual..) but seriously, I cannot see why people think it is acceptable to have an incestuous relationship. How on earth do you think it is okay for a parent to have 'a relationship' with one of their children??? It is unacceptable however you sugar-coat it.
ReplyDeleteHow on earth do you think it is okay to tell consenting adults how and who to love? Your mere asserting that it is wrong doesn't make it so.
DeleteAnd you merely asserting it is right doesn't make it so either. Your arguments are repetitive and flawed. You clearly have an incestuous relationship of your own ongoing, seeing as the extent of your own bias knowledge seems to suggest first hand experience.
DeleteSaying 'its fine most babies are born without defects' is like saying 'I killed some guy for no reason, but it doesn't make me a murderer because no one knows i've done it'.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI'll focus on the US, since that is where I live. Laws and court cases have repeatedly supported relationship rights for consenting adults and marriage as a fundamental right. We are supposed to have equality under the law, freedom of association, a right to privacy, and so on.
DeleteMy motivation has nothing to do with rather we'll have equal relationship rights sooner or later. My motivation is not relevant to the arguments.
You don't have to be involved to support equality. You just have to have a heart and a respect for other people. For example, I support the freedom fro same-gender couples to marry, even though I have no desire to marry someone of the same gender.
I have made no secret of my original inspiration:
http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/happy-triad.html
Your analogy does not work at all. Sex and childbearing are two different things. Tell me... would you decriminalize same-gender consanguinamory?
Equality is irrelevant in this argument. I'm saying it is wrong to partake in any sort of incestuous relationship, whether it involves sex and/or child bearing. How are you not getting this? I can guarantee a significant majority of homosexual people would be offended that you are comparing incest with homosexuality.
DeleteYou are aware that "consanguinamory" isn't a real word, right? You just keep throwing it out there in many arguments, when it doesn't even exist. How are you expecting people to retort to your made up bullshit? Fabricating your own words and evidence isn't going to make you win any arguments here, it just makes you deluded.
Equality is relevant to people who are being denied equality.
DeleteYou think it is wrong, but you have not provided any reason why your disapproval should be imposed on consenting adults.
Consanguinamory is shorthand. New words are coined all of the time. If you have nothing to offer here, move on. You've already made it clear you are prejudiced. We get it.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteAha, yet another tactic of yours, when having major flaws revealed in your deluded argument, delete the post!
DeleteNo doubt you'll give a very lame excuse like "he used swear words" or some crap like that. Get a grip on reality will you?
you know who else used censorship tactics to get people to believe in his ridiculous ideas?...
DeleteThis is not a government blog; you can have your own. So it is not censorship. I merely delete a hateful comment that made NO argument, only asserted a bigoted statement that had already been stated. Once someone has exposed their mere prejudice multiple times, there is no reason they need to do it again. Your lack of reason and logic will be why your hateful opinions will die off.
DeleteThat comment also highlighted your flawed argument about "consenting adults", I might add.
DeleteYou did nothing of the sort. All you did was assert that you should have a say over what some consenting adults do in their bedroom. The courts have disagreed and that is going to consistently applied. But if you think you should he able to stop people you don't even know from having the freedom of association, why should I let you speak freely on my blog? I have allowed you more freedom here than you would allow others. Take your prejudice elsewhere.
DeleteHello,I am a new visitor to your blog.I would like to ask you three simple questions .
Delete1.Is it ok if your father have anal sex with your daughter(18 years of age) in front of your mother?Your father and daughter are consenting adults..
2.Is it equality to have sex with a consenting adult-an adult dog,horse or a whale
3.Is it ok to have sex with any consenting adult(The Law of Attraction) that you meet without regards to your position-adultery,incest,orgy,masosadochism
Thank you
Best regards
1. I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would raise her to be an independent adult and she would have to make her own decisions about her body and sex at age 18.
Delete2. Yes, as soon as a dog, horse, or whale is considered a consenting adult person under the law.
3. I don't support cheating, but it shouldn't be a criminal matter. Whatever type of sex consenting adults want to have with each other should be up to them, not law enforcement officers.
Reproductive rights? Surely you have to prioritize the rights of the children who are the ones who will potentially have to live the disabilities throughout their lives based on the decision their parents made. Also I didn't say anything about the way in which I personally would treat the children, but the fact of the matter is that society in general would treat them poorly.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it is that there are two possible scenarios, neither of which are desirable:
a) The practice of having children in incestous relationships becomes widespread, in which case there will be a large increase in the number of people living with disabilties. This problem will only become worse over time as those with disabilities then have children themselves. I am not saying I disagree with disabled people having children, but I don't believe that society as a whole would benefit if it became the case that increasing numbers of people has to live with debilitating conditions.
b) The practice remains a taboo and those who do have children in incestuous relationships are looked on with disgust. This clearly wouldn't be beneficial to anybody, least of all the children born into an incestuous family who would in all likelihood be bullied and mistreated by those around them.
There is no reason why we would want either of the above two situations and incestuous reproduction should therefore remain illegal.
So, you would have nothing against same gender consanguinamorous relationships, right?
DeleteWould you take away reproductive rights from people with known genetic problems? Which ones?
Again, MOST children born to consanguinamorous parents are healthy. The odds are well over 90%.
You present a false dichotomy. People are ALREADY having children together. It isn't likely to be increased if the law no longer persecuted people for being in love. Go check out Rhode Island. See a problem there? Did repealing laws against same-gender relationships increase the number of gays and lesbians? People are attracted to who they are attracted to, regardless of laws.
Let's say you and me go toe to toe on bird law? then we'll see who comes out on top! Filibuster.
DeleteIf you have anything of substance to say instead of chest-puffing, go ahead and say it.
DeleteI posted a comment on May 9th at 8:02 and I am still yet to see any sort of response to the issues I raised. I guess I will accept it that you have no justifiable response.
ReplyDeleteI wish to sodomize and marry my cat, is this ok?
ReplyDeleteMy dog humps my leg all the time. According to all this inforamtion, this obviously means he wants to enter into a relationship with me. Thanks "marriageequality" person, you have clarified for me that it is perfectly acceptable :)
ReplyDeleteI see... you think a cat or a dog is a consenting adult human? It is silly arguments like yours that will ensure we get full marriage equality sooner rather than later.
ReplyDeleteThey are consenting anyway.this is what you are advocating?Are you not advocating that humans,if they are both consenting to sex whether related or not,the law should allow them to have sex?Please clarify?And that irrespective of moral standards,ethics,law or health.You fail to see the big picture Marriage Equality as far as marriage between a father and a daughter is concerned.Are you into a sect or something?That you pretend to know-it-all but that you don t put forward any argument for your deluded idea?Come on dude!Show some respect for your blog and try to convince us.Unless you are a retard
DeleteYes, I advocate that there be no laws criminalizing or discriminating against consenting adults humans having sex with each other.
DeleteI have put forth arguments all over this blog, hundreds of times.
I find it funny that people like this think incest will somebody be accepted in society.
ReplyDeleteROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
Do you mean 'someday'?
DeleteI has been, it is currently in some places, and it will be again in more places, especially with non-arguments like yours from the bigots. Keep laughing. Bigots used to say the same thing about interracial couples and gay couples.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Deleteso rude!
DeleteU equate gayness with incest?With people like you around,it does not come as a surprise that we have many child abuse cases...
DeleteI do not equate gayness with consanguinamory. They are two different things. Some gays are in consanguinamorous relationships, some are supportive, some are disgusted by the idea. Some people in consanguinamorous relationships are homophobic, some support gay rights. However, regardless of sexual orientation, and adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY consenting adults.
Deletelol yes thanks!!
ReplyDeletesabberst du oder hast du tollwut? ich wette du bist ein taubenlecker.
ReplyDeleteNo.
ReplyDeleteIn response to your reply on May 10th:
ReplyDeleteYou're conflating merely having incestuous relationships with actually having children in these relationships. At no point have I argued against these relationships in themselves.
As for your second question, I'm not sure. I don't know enough about genetic conditions but in principle, possibly. If the genetic defects would mean the child would suffer from such severe conditions that their quality of life would be compromised then yes, I wouldn't allow those people to reproduce.
You claim that over 90% of children born into families where the parents are close relatives are healthy. Whilst this may be true, I imagine that the data collected was only on the first generation of children. What happens if subsequent generations also have incestuous relations with families members?
Finally, I disagree with your last point. If having incestuous relationships became a social norm, those who have sexual feelings towards family members would be much more likely to express them. This is different the situation in your anecdote, as homosexuals typically wouldn't have already built up a family relationship with those they are attracted to.
Even if the number of incestuous relationships did not increase, it is probable that the number of children born into such relationships would rise if it became accepted by society. Those who would previously have abstained from having children would now do so, as they would no longer have to worry about what society would think.
Out of interest, what's your opinion on the Armin Meiwes case? Google it if you haven't heard of it.
So then you'd support full marriage equality?
DeleteReproductive rights have been established by the courts. There are people I think would make (or already are) horrible parents, but we don't stop them from becoming parents. Eugenics has a very bad history.
As is already the case, most lovers will decide not to have a child if there is a high risk of birth defects. Also, most people are raised with or by their biological relatives, and most of these people are not sexually attracted to their biological relative.
If adults do have such feelings for each other, I see no reason they shouldn't be free to express them. Trying to suppress consensual sexuality has caused many problems.
It doesn't matter what other kind of relationship they have. They could be business partners, too. Or complete strangers. So what?
We don't know that the number of children born into such relationships would rise, but we have things now like genetic counseling and prenatal testing, so if there was an increase, it would likely be of healthy births.
Regarding Armin Meiwes, Cornelius has already made a good point. This blog is about relationship rights for consenting (not insane) adults, and not about assisted suicide or cannibalism; I argue for people to be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage, appealing for consistency is our laws in that regarding sex and marriage. However, you do know we pay doctors good money to remove a penis, right?
What are your thoughts about countries executing gays for being gay?
Yes, marriage equality I would support. I guess in the end, if incestuous relationships and reproduction became legalised, then whether or not they posed a problem would depend on how many people actually decided to have children within these relationships. You say that most couples would opt not to have children if there is a high risk of defects, but even if a substantial minority did so, then it is possible that there would still be significant adverse impact on society. The only way we will know for certain what the impacts will be is if sexual relations between closely related couples becomes legalised.
DeleteAs for your point about pre-natal testing, there are various moral issues relating to the process. It is possible that it would not be deemed an acceptable practice if implemented on a large scale.
Finally, as I mentioned at the top of this post, I am in support of full marriage equality and am completely against discimination of any kind, let alone the execution of people for expressing their sexuality.
You are a sick perv, I must say. Consenting adults? Kiss my ass. If you can consent to something like that you must be a sick perv and must be locked up for the rest of your life. I agree with the last comment about Armin Meiwes. Well they were consenting adults weren't they? I guess you'd not stop at all. You must be a product of such a relationship, hence this brain deformity which make you think it's perfectly ok to have such a sick relationship. You probably have your grandfather as your dad and you yourself is a lover of your grandfather's ex having a daughter with her you're now in a relationship with. Just shut it ok? Just shut it!
ReplyDeleteConsenting adults? My ass you moron.
Anonymous,I agree with you.ME must b in a sort of incest relationship.where all they can see is a d_ _ k and a c_ _ t!and it does not matter if the c _ _ t is that of your daughter for that matter!ME..u seem to suggest that it is ok for ppl to procreate FOR sex with their babies when they come 18 years of age?Is the law would accept your retard opinion as ok,then all fathers would b f_ _ their daughters and just reveal it when the daughters become 18 years of age!How sick is that!For you..Master of Biggots,this shud b ok as they are consenting adults.HA!i pity your incestuous relationship which you seemed to be into ... you failed to experience the love between a parent and a child-one of care,trust and emotional intimacy.When a mother gives her breast milk to her child,she will try everything in the world to protect the child and not expect the child to later ram his d _ _ into her c _ _
DeleteYou are a sick perv, I must say. Consenting adults? Kiss my ass. If you can consent to something like that you must be a sick perv and must be locked up for the rest of your life. I agree with the last comment about Armin Meiwes. Well they were consenting adults weren't they? I guess you'd not stop at all. You must be a product of such a relationship, hence this brain deformity which make you think it's perfectly ok to have such a sick relationship. You probably have your grandfather as your dad and you yourself is a lover of your grandfather's ex having a daughter with her you're now in a relationship with. Just shut it ok? Just shut it!
ReplyDeleteConsenting adults? My ass you moron.
Bernd Jürgen Brandes, the victim, suffered from coprophagy, mental disorders, he was inclined to the pleasures of prostitution and to harm himself...
DeleteConsenting adults or circumvention of incapable person?
Do Lawrence and Ryan suffer from one of these disease?
-Cornelius
P.S. You are a very unpolite person.
In response to Anonymous at 5:52am...
DeleteYou are bigot. I'd rather be a pervert than a hater.
I'll let others decide who is more dangerous... someone who supports love, or someone who wants to imprison people for love or supporting love. Most people will see that you are the one who is sick.
We are all the product of relationships between close relatives if you go back far enough in our family trees. But no, my parents and my grandparents were not close relatives.
With arguments like yours, we'll get to full marriage equality sooner rather than later. Thanks for showing yet again there is no good reason to deny relationship rights, just prejudice.
Please calm down and open your heart to love. Recognize that not everyone is going to want the same love lives, and that other adults should be free to be together even if you are personally disgusted.
yes, in theory they should be allowed to marry, i guess... if they're consenting adults. but i wouldn't go so far as to congratulate them. it's still unfortunate and a little wrong. where the hell is their self-restraint? also, i'd hate to think people incapable of finding long-lost relatives and being able to have wholesome, healthy relationships with them. but that's how this whole thing seems. it just kind of depresses me, to be honest. makes me want to tell my female friend not to go looking for HER long lost dad... christ.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to congratulate Penny and Garry, may they have a long and happy life together, I've only skimmed through a few comments, I havn't got time for bigots. I've seen the word 'rape' and 'child abuse' Which is awful. There is no consent in that, so cant even see where the camparasion is. These are two 'consenting' adults, Who is anyone to say who we can and cannot love.
ReplyDeleteMarriage equality go to hell
ReplyDeleteIt is hatred like your hatred that is going to die out as marriage equality becomes the norm.
DeleteYour fucking stupid
DeleteI must say don't confuse love with sex. These are sick people who need help. As for marriage equality, you need to seek real help for considering this right. What happened to the old fashioned love b/w a man and a child and a woman and a child? You're saying as they get to age of 18 you should start convincing them as this is ok? You need serious help. All the people here congratulating this couple need some mental help.
ReplyDeleteYou prefer sex without love?
DeleteYou can say these people are sick all you want. It doesn't make it true. Actually, they are reacting naturally and normally to the circumstances. Did you read the article? He DID NOT RAISE HER.
You have not explained why you want to break up consenting adults. Perhaps you are the one who needs help? I have to wonder what everyone would think of your love life, if you have one.
marriage equality have you been watching too much of incestous porn lately? I bet your hard drive is filled with such matter. I must ask the police to investigate
ReplyDeleteAsk the police to investigate what? An American using his First Amendment right to express a political opinion that CONSENTING ADULTS should be free to be together? Genetic Sexual Attraction has NOTHING to do with incestuous porn. If you are implying I am interested in the exploitation of minors, I am most definitely not and I have no interested in any media that depicts that. Maybe I should have a private investigator look into your life?
DeleteWhy is it sick to love somebody? if it's two consenting adults why does it have to be they have mental issue's? And why in some countries is it not an issue at all, it wouldn't even be being discussed. Very judgemental, and by some of the comments, some people have a lot of pent up anger in their lives.. Such a shame, lifes too short.. I don't have time for the haters....
ReplyDeleteI' m sorry for you and every people involved in GSA, I was very judgemental few years ago, then I understood that my judging was wrong and harmful.
DeleteI hope this can be supportive ;)
Greets from Italy.
-Cornelius
If people with GSA are allowed to have children, their children have a considerably narrower gene pool than other children. Although they may be healthy, their children may not be because of this- narrowing gene pools leads to potentially dangerous health effects. Besides, when the child grows up to learn about his/her parent's relationship, how will that affect his/her mental wellbeing?
ReplyDeleteIn the US, we have reproductive rights. We don't make it illegal for people with known genetic diseases to have children even when here is a 25% or 50% chance a child will inherit the disease. So we certainly shouldn't stop consanguinamorous lovers from having children, given that it is will over 90% that the children of any given consanguinamorous couple will be healthy.
DeleteI forgot to add... a child should not have a problem with having loving parents who are in love each other. The biggest problem facing a child in such a situation is the prejudice of others. So... why not stop and fight the prejudice???
DeleteI just can't believe what i'm hearing here ! WAW I don't think I'm being intolerant when I say that such a relationship is disgusting and immoral ! let alone, dangerous for the baby ! is the whole world gone MAD ???? To me it's even more shocking to scream it out loud than to do it ! what message does that send to all the incestuous people out there ? that it's ok to have SEX with your father ? mother ? SIIIIIIIIICK you people should be ashamed of yourselves ! comparing homosexuality and incest ? interracial love with incest ? it has nothing to do with it, absolutely nothing ! long before the bible even existed , incest was seen as WRONG ! "baby, your daddy is also your grandaddy" those are the sick words that woman is gonna tell her child when he/she grows up ! i don't even wanna start to imagine what a HELL the life of this child will be !
ReplyDeleteYes, it IS okay to have sex with other adults if that is what you both want.
DeleteAll that matters to a child is to have loving parents. The only hell the child will have is from bigots like YOU. Stop the hate!
they are NOT doing anything wrong i'm sure.cos her mom didn't YET married her dad *which its her lover now* so when talking about biology of course she had his blood but by the relation perspective is not.when all the haters blaming them think again, many people had sex's before married which its we think is COOL N NORMAL sure. do u think that is SO MORALISTIC compare to this either? think again. same,same.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to be rude or anything... But I definitely do not agree with this. From what I know this is not approved in any religion!! I do believe in marriage equality for all, but having consensual sex with a father is just morally wrong!! This similar story happens to my friend, she even slept with her father (not knowing they were relatives) when they found out they were father and daughter she just wanted to commit suicide and felt so disgust!! And her father feels disgust too! It is obviously the Penny Lawrence and her father are not right in the head!
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry for your friend and her father, they have no "fault" at all, but there are people who discovered they're related and stayed together, in his article there's another article about two Spanish incestuous sibling who didn't know they were related:
Deletehttp://elpais.com/elpais/2012/05/29/inenglish/1338293499_914312.html
-Cornelius
You don't have to like a relationship to support equal rights for all adults. You have not explained what the problem is with them being together. You just say it is. Why??? Your friend could have been happy in her relationship if she didn't let prejudice ruin it. GSA is a normal, natural reaction; it is not a sign that someone has mental problems.
DeleteSome people are disgusted by the thought of interracial relationships, gay relationships, people of size having sex, an older woman and younger man having sex.... so what? If you don't like it, don't do it. But that should not prevent other people from being happy together.