A Meeting of Needs

While we more often hear from siblings, nephews/nieces/uncles/aunts, and adult sons/daughters and moms/dads, we do sometimes hear from adult grandchildren and grandparents. A man from India contacted me and we discussed his experiences with his grandmother. He first became sexually interested in his maternal grandmother when he was staying with his grandparents, and other relatives, during summer vacation when he was a preteen and she was in her early fifties, but that interest wouldn't be fulfilled until later, when he was an adult.

Read about it for yourself...

*****

Anonymous: Years later my Grandpa passed away. My parents tried their best at convincing Grandma to come and stay with us. It took a couple of years, before she eventually moved in with us. 

We had her move into our guest bedroom, which was right next to my room. This was when I was 21 and she must have been around 63 at that time. I still stayed with my parents at that time, I was in college and since my parents were working, we had the house to ourselves a lot. 

Whenever it was the two of us, I would get close to her and flirt with her. I would always say things like how beautiful she looked, and how much lucky Grandpa was to have her. She would just blush and giggle. I would do this thing whenever I got back from college, she would be in the kitchen standing and doing her chore, and I would sidle up to her and give her a back hug. I would then rest my head on her collarbone and then we would talk. I could see that she was definitely enjoying all this, as she never stopped me and even she reciprocated by hugging and kissing me more. We grew more closer than ever before.  

Better Late Than Never

People in consanguinamorous relationships are everywhere, though consanguinamorists tend to be closeted. Fortunately, some are willing to be interviewed for this blog. As a result, Full Marriage Equality has featured scores of exclusive interviews with lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The man and woman interviewed below should be free to legally marry, yet they can't, and they could be imprisoned and have their lives ruined if they were outed. They are consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone; why should they be denied their rights? In much of the world, including all but a a few US states, they could be criminally prosecuted for their love

Read the interview below and see for yourself what they have to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it ideal, even highly erotic and romantic, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights simply because they love each other this way?

WARNINGS: Mildly explicit sexuality. 

New to This Blog or Looking to Find Out More?

We support the rights of an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any other union offered by law), and any of those things without the others, with any and all consenting adults, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. These are basic human rights and it shouldn't matter who is disgusted by the relationships of other adults or who doesn't understand why the adults would want to be together.

If you're viewing the desktop/laptop version, you'll see that over there in the column on the right you can find ways to connect and to follow this blog, and at the top of the page are tabs with drop-downs of some important pages, entries, and links. If you're viewing a mobile version, many of the links are below.

You are welcomed and affirmed here regardless of your gender, sexuality, or relationship diversities, and whether you are looking for more information, are in the closet or out about your gender, sexual orientation, or relationship, or want to be an ally. Are you here because of polyamory or polygamy? Perhaps you're here because this blog covers Genetic Sexual Attraction or consanguinamory (consensual incest) or because you think or know your partner has been involved? Do you need help? Whether you're a family member or friend who is looking for more information, or a journalist, or are someone who is looking to help the cause, we hope you are helped by what is here.

There's an About This Blog page, and you can read about the triad who originally inspired this blog.

There's a Glossary so that you can become familiar with terms frequently used here.

We explain why we need solidarity in supporting full marriage equality and we debunk all the arguments that you'll ever hear made against equality, so if you're against equal rights, please carefully read through that page.

On the Case Studies page we feature interviews with people who have been denied their rights, so you can "meet" people who are, or have been, in consensual loving relationships who have are harmed by the lack of equality under the law.

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Myths about Genetic Sexual Attraction
Ten Myths About Sibling Consanguinamory
Bad Reasons to Deny Love
Ten Reasons Why Consensual Incest is Wrong (Sarcastic) 

Uganda With the Wind

Uganda sure seems like a hellhole, with the corruption and the horrifying human rights record. Extreme homophobia is enough reason to stay way from the place. Now comes this report from Betty Angatai at newvision.co.ug about how some married heterosexuals are treated. I hope all peaceful and loving people can get out of there.

A 40-year-old man in Mayuge district has been expelled from his ‘Baise Magumba’ clan over incest after he married his 25-year-old niece.

Jowali Waiswa, a resident of Kavule village in Imanyiro sub-county, was on Sunday expelled after his clan members complained about his act of marrying a relative, an act that is against the norms of the clan and the Busoga culture.

Dalausi Magumba, the leader of the clan, said Waiswa secretly married his sister’s daughter and has stayed with her for six years, during which they have produced three children.

And yet the world didn't end. So why not leave them alone to love each other? Notice that no mention is made that there is anything wrong with the children. I'm sure that would have been included if there was.

A Picture of GSA

One is not going to get a good idea of what Genetic Sexual Attraction is from a few minutes of a television interview show sensationalizing the topic with woman, promoting a book and subscription website, with a limited, brief, doubtful experience with a long-lost relative.

The Lioness just posted something that is much better at giving a glimpse of GSA (as do her other blog postings.) She has experienced GSA with her genetic father, and it appears her brother is experiencing it, too. From her recent posting...

My brother spent the night at my apartment about a month ago. We were working with me on something to earn money and we didn’t get complete with our project until one o’clock a.m. I didn’t sleep with him. We mostly kissed. He held me, looked into my eyes, and I felt uncontrollably high. The last time I felt so wonderful in someone’s arms was when my father first held me. Never again has my father made me feel so perfect (I will explain why later). We stared into one another’s eyes for several minutes. I didn’t get it. I mean I do now, but then, it was just so amazing that words cannot describe how I felt. 

Go read it all.

And read interviews with people who've experienced Genetic Sexual Attraction here, here, here, here, here, and here.

We Get Letters

Anonymous left a comment against a loving couple. Scroll down to the comments to see it and see my response.

Another Ally For Consanguinamory

A Young Contrarian Speaks, which presents “rhetoric from a lonely liberal,” offered thoughts on abn advice column that dealt with sex between a widowed grandmother and her grandson, “On Incestuous Grandmothers and Morality.”

Not that I have anything against the pitiful undergrad who dabbled with a potent combination of incest and anililagnia, but it was hard to read the atrocious advice offered by ‘Thelma’ without wincing. She indulged in age-old assumption that men are horny beasts utterly incapable of controlling our lustful desires, while women (apparently even those tottering with creaking joints and wrinkled skin) indubitably play the role of the seductress. This morally dubious judgement was immediately followed by a legally erroneous one- it is irrelevant to bring up statutory rape when the lad in question was clearly over the age of consent in Malaysia (16), and furthermore our laws do not make allowance for male victims of rape.

It is good to have that clarity.

What is so morally abhorrent about incest? The automatic reaction for most people (including myself) upon reading the aforementioned column is a cringe of disgust. This sense of repulsion is caused by a variety of factors, but most obviously by the incestuous nature the sexual relationship. I personally would not be very much disturbed by the notion of the young lad enjoying carnal relations with an elderly woman (though I may find his taste questionable).

“Elderly” women can be great, experienced, caring lovers.

It is the blood-tie, the familial relation that causes that instinctive flinch of distaste to the whole state of affairs.

For some.

The fact that countless people discriminate against homosexuality for reasons which do not stand a moment’s scrutiny makes me wary of not challenging my own deeply imbedded assumptions.

Ask the next person you meet why precisely does he or she impugn the morality of incestuous relationships, and chances are you will get the following reaction: ‘It’s just not natural!’. That exclamation, accompanied by the furore of the eyebrows and grimace of the mouth, appears to be the end of the discussion for most people on the subject. Unfortunately, the argument is one that is equally often employed against homosexuality and it has no merits in either case.

It is Discredited Argument #5.

Firstly comes the question of what exactly is defined as ‘natural’, after all, are humans natural? And if we are natural beings, how can it be possible for us to do anything unnatural? Assume that you are able to neatly divide the world’s phenomena in sub categories of ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’, and you still have the problem that the naturalness of an act has little to say about its morality. There are natural phenomena that are hugely destructive (virus, tsunamis), and unnatural phenomena which we all love and cherish (the internet, vaccines). Clearly it is not possible to judge the moral character of an act simply by whether or not you consider it ‘natural’.

Well done.

A more plausible line of argument may be that incestuous relationships lead to lack of genetic diversity, in other words-deformed children. This is certainly a relevant component to consider, but it hardly settles the issue.

It is Discredited Argument #18.

If we were to condemn incest purely on the grounds of genetic diversity, we would have to denounce all couples who carry a higher than normal risk of passing on defective genes (such as those with a recessive Down syndrome gene). And yet we do not look upon such couples with condemnation but with sympathy. It comes into question what degree of genetic risk is acceptable for our scorn; after all by most measures children produced by first cousin couples only carry a marginally higher risk of chromosomal irregularity. The whole question is made moot by the fact that we live in an era where contraceptives are easily available, and sexual intercourse is done for reasons other than procreation. Since an infertile but incestuous relationship is almost certainly to be condemned in equal terms by most parties, the possibility of deformed children does not appear to be the central issue here.

Well done, again.

The only path left for one wishing to prohibit incest is either an appeal to religion, or to just call it repugnant without clarification.

Discredited Arguments #1 and 4.

I won’t go into the religion argument too closely, but suffice to say that every religion has had its rules on morality bent due to the passage of time, and a great many practices we take for granted today (equal rights for women, usage of condoms) would have seemed morally questionable at time of the conception of most monotheistic religions. You have to employ something further than a reference to divine to justify your belief, at least if you want others to take you seriously. The argument from repugnance is rarely articulated, it is just assumed that if sufficient people hold a consensus in dislike for a certain act then no further justification is required. It should be obvious however, that we cannot simply implement policies and laws on the basis of our individual tastes. The fact that the question even arises shows that at least one other individual (or in this case two individuals) does not share in the popular assessment.

Rights are not reserved for the majority anyway.

By making these arguments, I do not have to indicate encouragement or approval of incestuous relationships. I do, however, point out that the vitriol and revulsion commonly associated with the taboo of incest seems to be rather misplaced. There are much more horrific actions to disavow than consensual sex between adults, and the sharing of a common bloodline does not immediately make it inherently unethical. My own line of thinking that the dynamics of a family structure does make sex between their direct members significantly unhealthy,

See #19.

but I can find no reason to condemn say, siblings who were separated from birth who are later reunited and then wish to have a romantic liaison.

Genetic Sexual Attraction.

When people are informed and sit down and think it through, rather thank letting their personal, knee-jerk emotional reactions to form opinion on law, they’ll see that there is no reason to deny the consanguinamorous freedoms to sex and marriage.

Attacking Love

Brittaj17's Blog says it is about “Real Estate, News & Fun. Blogs about everything, with a twist.”

I know things are bad where I am when it comes to real estate and apparently it is very slow where Brittaj17 works, too, because she has the time to disparage love between consenting adults. She’s hating on the love between septuagenarian Pearl Carter and twentysomething Phil Bailey, which we wrote about quite a while ago. Why? Because Phil is Pearl’s genetic grandson. They didn’t meet until Phil was an adult, though.

It’s not that I don’t have an open mind, nor do I like to judge…but this seems incredibly sick.

That is judging and being closed-minded.

He is the son of her daughter Lynette Baily for goodness sakes! But to make matters worse, when she was 18-years-old, Pearl put her up for adoption.

Why does that make things worse? Pearl made the brave decision to give her child up, most likely to give that child a life better than she could provide. So Pearl did not raise Phil’s mother. They are genetic relatives, but Phil and Pearl had no prior social relationship whatsoever.

Disgusting…at her age, she should know better!

At her age, it is great that she has found love and is enjoying life. If the blogger finds it disgusting, she doesn’t have to do it. But who is she to denounce a consensual relationship between adults?

How many people Pearl’s age get warehoused in facilities and are lonely, without anyone coming to visit them? That is disgusting. Good for Pearl that she found love and companionship. These are consenting adults, and they should have their rights to share love, sex, residence and marriage and are just one of countless examples of why we need full marriage equality.

Defending Pearl Carter and Phil Bailey

An anonymous commenter wrote in response to my post on Pearl Carter and Phil Bailey. Writing May 1, 2010 4:23 PM:

really....of all the things I can tolerate, this is just not one of them. If that offends anyone here, I'm sorry you feel that way. Please take a look at history. Specifically, please look at the line of Egypt's Pharaohs. Look at what happened to they physically due to constant intermarriage. This is really not ok. Medical science has proven how bad this can be genetically. That's a good portion of the reason it should never be allowed.

First of all, Pearl and Phil not having children together biologically. They are using a surrogate.

More importantly, though, is that someone’s genes and love life are nobody else’s business. Whether or not someone has children with someone else is nobody else’s business. Ever hear of privacy and reproductive rights?

One couple does not make “constant intermarriage.”

Finally, plenty of children have been born from genetically closer relationships without significant problems. On the other hand, there are children born with problems whose parents were not close closely related. It isn’t your business.

Again, I say congratulations to Pearl Carter and Phil Bailey for finding love with each other and for not being afraid to speak up. Maybe it will help advance marriage equality, especially when more people get to know you.

Congrats to Pearl Carter and Phil Bailey

A grandmother, Pearl Carter has found love in the arms of a younger man, Phil Bailey. It is making news because he's her biological grandson.

Phil is the son of Pearl's daughter Lynette Bailey, and the pair is braving public horror and even prison by breaking one of the last taboos – incest.

However, the pair makes no apologies for their controversial plan to start their own family.

Good for them. They are showing the world that there’s nothing to be ashamed of, and that their relationship is just as valid as any other.

'I'm not interested in anyone else's opinion,' Pearl says. 'I am in love with Phil and he's in love with me. Soon I'll be holding my son or daughter in my arms and Phil will be the proud dad'.

Phil adds, 'I love Pearl with all my heart. I've always been attracted to older women and I think Pearl is gorgeous.

Shouldn’t they be able to marry if they choose? They're going to have a child through a surrogate, and that child should have the legal protections of a married family, if that is what they want.

Due to Lynette being adopted out, Phil and Pearl didn’t find each other until after Phil was an adult. The article does discuss Genetic Sexual Attraction, and how knowing about that has put them at ease.

In 2006, Phil met his grandmother for the first time.

'From the first moment that I saw him, I knew we would never have a grandmother-grandson relationship,' Pearl remembers happily. 'For the first time in years I felt sexually alive.'

Phil admits that he had the same feelings towards Pearl.

'I wanted to kiss her there and then,' he says. 'My feelings were overwhelming.'

We need more couples like them to come out to the world. Congratulations to them. And read the whole story, which, thankfully, does not have quotes from any bigots.