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Saturday, August 31, 2019

How Consanguineous Lovers Can Avoid Trouble


Believe it or not, there are still criminal laws in many places criminalizing consensual sex between adults, and there are still police officers who will investigate people for this "crime," still prosecutors who will take the case before a court, and still judges and jurors who will convict people and sentence them to prison. There are still social workers who will take children away from good parents because those parents love other adults.

It doesn't matter to them how loving the relationships are. It doesn't matter if they love each other more than they could love others, it doesn't matter if the lovers didn't even meet each other until they were adults. It apparently doesn't matter to the people interfering that every dollar or minute they spend trying to stop consenting adults from loving each other is a dollar or minute that could instead go into protecting people, especially children, against predators.

In addition to this persecution of consanguinamorous people, there aren't any protections against other forms of discrimination against the consanguinamorous, such as employment discrimination. There are still many states that don't have protections for LGBT people, either, and polyamorous people are even less protected than monogamous LGBT people.

I sometimes forget that people don’t follow the news and law as closely as I do for this blog, so they may be unaware of these things. So I want to share with you what I've learned.

First, note the disclaimer that there is an ever-present at the bottom of this blog. I'll mostly repeat it here:

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Thursday, August 29, 2019

Sibling Rivalry or Sibling Revelry

I used to be active on a certain Big Online Portal's question-and-answer feature, answering questions related to full marriage equality and relationship rights for all adults, and occasionally questions about teenager sexuality. I still read what goes on there. Every once in a while, someone will ask a question like this...
I caught my siblings making out, what should i do?
I caught my 16 year old sister and 17 year old brother making out, I don't really know what to do. To be honest I'm very shocked, and a bit disoriented thinking about it. They're both pretty attractive, I don't see why they would shack up with each other when they could go out and get people who... aren't related to them.

I want to tell ma and pa, but they begged me not to, don't really know how to approach this situation, Or if I should just respect their privacy. I guess I'm just worried about their mental health, but I guess that's pretty unfair of me to assume something is wrong with them.

What do i do?
For all we know, the teens "making out" with each other are both half-siblings to the asker, and unrelated to each other, or they could be stepsiblings or adopted siblings. Or, they could be half or full-blood siblings to each other. (It might have even been a reunion Genetic Sexual Attraction situation if the siblings have not been raised together.) Whatever their genetic, legal, and social relation, it isn't uncommon for siblings as close in age as they are, especially in their teens, to have such affection between them.

Also, we don't know where they live, and thus whether or not they live somewhere where it is legal for a 17-year-old and 16-year-old to have sex with each other.

Most therapists consider such sibling behavior, absent any coercion, force, or intimidation, to be mutual experimentation or exploration.

In general, however, my advice to someone in the asker's position is to:

1. Confirm this is a voluntary activity. If observing wasn't enough, ask the younger/smaller/less assertive/more needy sibling if they are being pressured, intimidated, coerced, or forced in any way.

2. Respect their privacy. Start by reminding them it's a good idea to be discreet and promise you will knock.

3. Protect and support them.

4. If needed, assist them in accessing contraception and health care.

(See this extensive advice at The Final Manifesto for friends and family of consanguinamorous siblings.)
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Monday, August 26, 2019

How Common Are Swinging Parties?


Here is his answer to the question "How Common Are Swinging Parties?"

Very. Very very very. There are a lot of swingers in the world. 
If you’re near any reasonably-sized Western town, there’s probably a swing party or three happening somewhere in town on any given weekend, not including all the private sex parties and play parties happening in private homes. 
If you’re in a larger town or small city, I can pretty much guarantee there are swinger events happening near you, on average, at least four or five days a week. If you’re in a major city, I’ll bet money a sex party is taking place within five miles of you on any given weekend.
This idea that most people are cisgender heterosexual lifelong monogamists (or serial monogamists) who fit neatly into traditional gender roles and marry one person of the "opposite sex" who is the same race as them and not "too closely" related and they have vanilla sex in their bedroom 2-3 times per week and rarely anywhere else is something that just doesn't match up with reality.

There are people who are voluntarily celibate and/or chaste, whether they are asexual or not.

There are people not far from where you are right now who are transgender or genderfluid.

There are people not far from where you are right now who...
  • Are in a relationship/marriage with someone of a different race.
  • Are in same-sex monogamous or monogamish relationships, including marriage.
  • Are ethically nonmonogamous, whether they are swingers or in open relationships or are polyamorous or somehow engaged in, and/or prone to, some forms of consensual, honest nonmonogamy.
  • Are in, or oriented towards, romantic and/or erotic relationships with close relatives.
  • Engage in what are considered kinks or fetishes that only involve consensual interactions with others.
You don't even realize it about many of them, especially if you aren't looking for it. So many of these people lead otherwise "regular" or "traditional" lives.

Our laws, institutions, workplaces, policies, and programs must take these things into account. Affirming relationship rights, including full marriage equality, will help with that.
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Thursday, August 22, 2019

What Genealogists Know

With each previous generation you trace back, the maximum possible number of your genetic ancestors doubles. You can have 2 parents, up to 4 grandparents, up to 8 great-grandparents, up to 16 great-great-grandparents, etc.

On average, there are about four generations per century. For people born in the year 2000, their 8 great-great-grandparents were probably born around 1900. Sometime around 1800 their great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents were born (there may be up to 128 of them). About 29 generations back, or roughly around the time of 1250-1300, the total number of your possible ancestors for that generation equals or exceeds the total population of the planet, which was about 500 million people.

What gives? Well, first of all, if all 500 million of those people were your ancestors, they would also be the ancestors of all of the rest of us, too.

Secondly, you probably don’t have every person alive back then as your ancestor. There wasn’t a lot of interracial or intercultural parenting going on back then. People were more isolated, more people lived in rural countrysides rather than dense urban areas, and people were not nearly as geographically or socially mobile as they are today. It was very common for a person to be born in and to die in the the same village or town, having lived all of her or his life there.

This means that for many, many, many, many generations, there was a lot of what most people would call today “inbreeding.” If your spouse wasn’t your first cousin, your spouse was likely a second or third cousin, or a second cousin-once removed, or even your double-cousin, etc. And as I’ve noted before, even if they weren’t marrying them, people were having children with siblings, aunts or uncles, etc. (Even if not having children together, what do you think went on, given that pubescent teens, like most children, were usually sharing a bedroom?) Not only did these things not destroy humanity, but in Europe, the Renaissance was birthed in these conditions.

Coming back to around 1800, very few people are likely to have 128 great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, just like very few of those people in 1800 had 128 of them in 1600. Because chances are, some of your recent ancestors were cousins, if not closer. If you marry your first cousin, you have no more than six genetic grandparents between you, instead of eight. If your parents are first cousins, you have six great-grandparents instead of eight.

If “inbreeding” was as detrimental as common misconception says, none of us would be here.

 
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Tuesday, August 20, 2019

Is Being Poly Genetic?


The Ferrett addresses, “Polyamory Genetic? Is Homosexuality Genetic?”

My thoughts on a genetic polyamory link are the exact same as my thoughts on a genetic homosexual link:

I don’t care.

Right! We have many things, including the technology I’m using to write this and you are using to read this, which are not part of our genetics. What difference does it make? See Discredited Argument #5.

Even if the gays were, as some suggest, all conspiring in one big plot to annoy us fine-thinking straight people, wincing as they sucked distasteful d--- and reluctantly chowed p---y out of some misplaced form of rebellion, it should still be allowed.

The truth is, gay sex is between consenting adults, and it hurts no one but those adults – there are way more deadly car accidents caused by beers than queers. You may consider gayness to be a bad choice, but two people should be free to make bad choices together. And what people want to do for fun in their private life is something that should be allowed, no matter how distasteful it may be to me.

Agreed. See Discredited Argument #1.

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Sunday, August 18, 2019

Swinging Around the Family Tree

I know more than one polyamorous relationship that involves close relatives. In some cases, a consanguinamorous relationship is involved, meaning the close relatives are partners, and in other cases, they are not with each other but are with the same person or part of the same polycule. Some famous male polygynists in plural marriages are married to sisters. Traditional polyandry in places like India usually involves a woman married to multiple brothers.

I’m always interested in hearing from more people in such relationships. I’m also interested in hearing from others who may or may not be in ongoing relationships, but have been been in sexual situations, whether planned or not, where a relative (blood, step, adopted, on in-law,) perhaps a cousin, sibling, parent, uncle, aunt, adult child, nephew, or niece was involved or at least present. For example, someone goes to a play party and is surprised to find their sibling there. Or maybe it was a private threesome with siblings or parent and their adult child.

Basically, I’m looking for people who’ve been to the intersection of polyamory or swinging or threesomes/moresomes (and those three are NOT synonyms, by the way) and family connections.
I do realize that many nonmonogamous people are completely opposed to consanguinamorous relationships, and I also know some people in consanguinamorous relationships think monogamy is the only right way. That is one of the reasons I’m seeking people who’ve experienced the intersection of sexuality with more than two people involved or present + legal or blood relation. I know some. I’m looking to hear from more.

And I’m always looking for anyone who wants to be interviewed or just wants to correspond who is, or was, in a “forbidden” consensual adult relationship (including monogamous ones) or now that faces cultural, familial, or legal opposition (interracial, intergenerational, gay, polyamorous, polygamous, open, consanguineous, etc.)

Please write me via my Tumblr http://fullmarriageequality.tumblr.com or Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/fullmarriageequality or email fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com

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Saturday, August 17, 2019

Multiplying Taboos - Her Side

We recently featured an interview with a man who has a secret, long-term affair ongoing with his adult daughter. She wanted to provide her side of the story, so here it is.

This blog is here to advocate for the rights of all consenting adults to be together how they mutually agree. Included in that is supporting ethical or consensual nonmonogamy. Unfortunately, because of lingering laws and prejudices about consanguinamory, many people can't be open about their attractions and experiences; cheating, which we do not advocate, can happen in such a negative environment as people do not feel free to discuss things openly and honestly with their partners, or anyone else for that matter. Again, we don't advocate cheating, but we recognize that some consanguineous sex does happen in the context of cheating. Still, there are things we can learn about relationships in general and consanguineous relationships especially by interviewing people who have had such experiences.

The woman interviewed below is married to a man and having a longtime secret affair with her biological father, who is married to her mother.

In much of the world, including all but a couple of US states,both the father and daughter could be criminally prosecuted for this, not for the cheating, but for having sex with each other.


Read the interview below and see for yourself what this woman has to say. You may think her relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it ideal, even highly erotic and romantic; you might find the cheating to be unacceptable. But whatever your reaction, should this be a crime? If their spouses were agreeable, shouldn't they be able to be open about their relationship and even marry? Also, notice that aspects of the relationship are common to consanguineous relationships that don't involve cheating, too. We don't condone cheating, but even a relationship that involves cheating can help give an understanding of the dynamic of consanguineous relationships, as this is happening everywhere.


WARNINGS: Mildly explicit sexuality and cheating.
 

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Friday, August 16, 2019

Ten Reasons Why Consensual Incest Is Wrong

1) Some people get abused by relatives. That makes consensual incest wrong the same way abuse/assault by non-relatives makes sex in general wrong.

2) Many people are disgusted by the idea. If something disgusts many people, it must be wrong for everybody! People are so disgusted by the possibility of having sex with a close relative that they always get DNA tests before having sex with anyone, to just be sure they aren’t having sex with a relative.

3) It increases the risks of birth defects, and anything that does that is wrong and shouldn’t be allowed, just like we don’t allow pre-menopausal women over the age of 35 to have sex, and we don’t let anybody with obvious, serious inheritable diseases have sex. Yup, this is why it is wrong for two half-brothers to fall in love, or why stepsiblings who didn’t even meet until they were teenagers shouldn’t be together. They might make a mutant baby!

4) It’s illegal in some places, and something being illegal always makes it wrong. You know, like harboring runaway slaves? That’s why having sex with your first cousin is wrong in Texas but just fine in almost every other US state, half of which legally marry first cousins, and why consensual incest between closer family members isn’t wrong in Rhode Island, which has no laws against consensual adult incest.

5) It’s not natural, and people should only be allowed natural things, like bicycles, smart phones, and iPads. OK, maybe it is natural in some species. But we shouldn’t lower ourselves to the behavior of other animals, who make wars and pollute the planet.

6) Someone’s religion is against it. And if someone’s religion is against it, nobody else should be able to do it. You’ll never find examples of acceptable consensual incest in the Bible.

7) There are so many people you’re not closely related to. That makes consensual incest (consanguinamory) wrong, just like there being plenty of people in your own race makes interracial relationships wrong.

8) Only rural poor people would ever do such a thing, not royals or educated people. And anything done by rural poor people is wrong.

9)There is often a power differential in consensual incestuous relationships, and relationships with power differentials are just wrong. That’s why no President of the United States, Senator, Governor, judge, district attorney, or police chief has ever been married, and we bar wealthy or intelligent people from marrying someone who isn’t as wealthy or intelligent as them. Yes, power differentials are exactly why half siblings close in age, even if they didn’t meet until they were adults, shouldn’t be allowed to be together.

10) It messes up family structures and dynamics. That’s why every family’s dynamics are always required to be evaluated and corrected by outsiders, and people are never allowed to break up if a breakup will mess up the dynamics of the family. And people are never allowed to work with family members, as that could cause conflicts or too much reliance on family. Yes, messing up a family dynamic is why genetic relatives who were raised by different families should never be allowed to be together.

Yup, we need to let all of those people who’ve found that a close relative makes the best life partner for them, or perhaps just a trustworthy sexual partner, know what they are doing is wrong and they should stop, and go settle for someone else, who I’m sure will be just fine being the B-list choice for someone who’d rather be with the person they see when the family gets together. People need to make sure they aren’t doing anything that makes anyone who’s not involved uncomfortable. That needs to come before their happiness.

This bit of sarcasm is brought to you by someone who supports the rights of ALL consenting adults to their relationships with any and all consenting adults.
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Thursday, August 15, 2019

NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #20

"It is sick! These relationships are dysfunctional!" This is almost always a thinly disguised variation of Discredited Arguments #1, #3, or #19. There are many mentally healthy people in healthy, functional, consanguinamorous relationships.

As this blog and others have repeatedly shown, there is no good reason to keep laws, discrimination, or stigmas against consanguinamory (consanguineous or consensual incest sex or relationships) that is consistently applied to other relationships. One of the grasping-at-straws assertions that one might make when all of their justifications for denying rights fails is "people who do that are sick" or "those relationships are dysfunctional."

Before we do anything else, let's make it clear that we're talking about consensual sex and relationships, not abuse. It's not fair to point to abuse, assault, child molestation, etc. by a close relative as an example of how "incest" is "sick".

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Wednesday, August 14, 2019

Does Swapping or Swinging Ruin Marriage?


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Friday, August 9, 2019

NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #19


“There are so many people outside of your family. Go marry/have sex with one of them, instead. It creates friendships between families.” There are plenty of people within one’s own race, too, but that is no reason to ban interracial marriage. I have many friends outside of my family to whom I’m neither married nor married to a relative of theirs. On the other hand, don't we all know unrelated married couples who actually drive their relatives apart from each other? Let adults marry the consenting adult(s) of her or his choice.

Telling someone who is happy with their lover that they should dump that person (or even be prosecuted for being with that person) and should be denied their right to marry because there is someone else they can be with instead is an arrogant and usually, very much a cruel intrusion into someone else's life. How would the person who says this like it if someone told them they had to drop their lover (if they have one) and go find someone else, even though they are consenting adults who want to be together and are happy together?

There are people in consanguinamorous relationships who could never find as much love and happiness with someone else, and trying to force them to do so isn't fair to anyone, including the person for whom they "settle." There are people who are consanguinamorous in their orientation.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #18

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #20
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Thursday, August 8, 2019

Genetic Sexual Attraction, Incest, and Consanguinamory


To act, or not to act, that is the question.

As always, I am talking about consensual sex, not molestation, assault, or rape.

Close relatives may experience mutual attraction as a result of Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA), Genetic Attraction, Familial Sexual Attraction, or some other experience or phenomenon. I’m addressing these together because they all involve close relatives. These things can lead to incest (consanguineous sex, or consanguinamory) in the form of sibling sex, parent-adult child sex, cousin sex, etc. It may also lead to marriage or spousal relationships. While all sexual activity related to these can be called consanguineous, reuniuon GSA-initiated consanguinamory is a special subset and it should be noted that opinions of those who have been in such relationships towards non-reunion consanguinamory range from support to indifference to uneasiness to condemnation.

Speaking of GSA, there is a split in the GSA community about whether to act or not (or to stop acting). Many people who have experienced GSA, prior to having the experience, had never considered the possibility of being attracted to a close relative and may have thought the idea disgusting, but they found themselves attracted to a close biological relative anyway. Those in the GSA community against acting or continuing to act have various motivations; a bad personal experience acting on GSA, a priority of obedience to laws (even if unjust), their personal sexual mores, and perhaps for some, intense emotion about something they never had or can no longer have. They may very well think they are sparing others pain by urging them not to act. But others say the pain for them was in delaying the reality that they had been reunited with someone who was now their true love.

I deal with common arguments against the rights to share love, sex, residence, and marriage on this page. But just because one should have the right to share these things with a relative doesn’t mean they should share these things in any given case. That is the point of why I am writing this.

ALL romantic or sexual relationships are emotionally risky. Most do not work out, or most of us would still be in our first one. As with any relationship, you should be the one making that decision for you, not anybody else. Don't let others decide for you. There are trade-offs and emotional risks in any relationship. With a possible consanguinamorous relationship, there are generally pros and cons, and with GSA, there is likely to be pain and struggle no matter what course is taken. Ultimately, each situation can have different factors than others, but there are some general considerations I will address.

If there is mutual attraction, and that is a big if, there are many things that should be considered before becoming more physically intimate. Notice that to one extent or another, these apply to relationships with nonrelatives as well.

First, the cautionary considerations…

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Tuesday, August 6, 2019

Frequently Asked Question: Why Is Incest Illegal?

It shouldn’t be illegal anywhere, as you’ll see. As always, we note that we are talking about consensual incest (consanguinamory), such as between consenting adults, and between minors close in age. We are not talking about anything involving coercion or force or molestation. There are laws against rape, assault, and molestation, and they should remain. We are talking about consensual incest, consanguineous sex and marriage, and consanguinamory, whether initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction or not.

Short answer: It isn’t illegal everywhere, but where it is, it is the lingering result of sex-police holdovers, superstition, prejudice, and legislative inertia.

Long answer:

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Sunday, August 4, 2019

You're Not Alone and Affection Isn't Wrong

Some of the people who find this blog are feeling alone, isolated, or confused.

If that's you, you might need to read this:

There's nothing wrong with consenting adults sharing affection, or wanting to share affection. There's nothing wrong with consenting adults getting playful and experimenting with each other, exploring different sensations and ways of interacting with each other.

Relationships and sexual affection don't have be limited to a heterosexual, monogamous framework that follows a narrow casting and choreography. You can be with people of the same gender as you. You can be with more than one person, including people who are different genders from each other. You can be with other adults who are younger than you, older than you, a different race than you, have a background that's very different from you. You can be with people who are closely related to you by genetics or by law. (This isn't to say that some places don't still have unjust laws against some relationships or affection.)

When you are with these people, your physical affection with them might include, or not, countless different things. You might explore things considered kinky or strange or taboo.

People have done these things all throughout history, wherever there have been people. They are doing them now - right now, not far from where you are. You are not alone.

It doesn't matter if some people haven't liked that other people have done these things. What matters is what you and your lover(s) mutually consent to do.

It is OK to try things and then decide you don't want to do those things again, or maybe you'll try it again some other time, but not soon. It's OK to want to try new things even if you have been doing the same thing for a while. Desires change. Curiosities evolve. Tastes shift.

Different things you want might have the potential for effects that you might not want. There is information about minimizing the possibilities of such effects, whatever they are.

Don't let the prejudices of others and the restrictions they have placed on themselves or the fears smothering them prevent you from having the relationships and sex life you want to have. If you need someone else to tell you that it is OK to enjoy or at least try something, this is it!

If you want someone to talk with, contact me.
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Saturday, August 3, 2019

Consanguinamory and Reproduction

One of the most common reasons given to object to the right to consanguineous relationships is what I call the "mutant baby" argument. Even some people who support the right to consanguinamory and have even engaged in consanguineous sex themselves join with bigots in being strongly against close relatives having children together because of prejudiced backlash or the increased risk of birth defects.

In regards to the prejudiced backlash, the answer is not to let bigots have their way. It is for bigots to lose their power to bully, prosecute, and break up homes. Don't want children of consanguineous parents to have a hard time? Do not give them a hard time.

In regards to the increased risk of birth defects, scientific understanding is often lacking.

Most sexual encounters do not result in a birth. Many people who have relationships or marry never have genetic children together; some people in consanguinamorous relationships choose not to. So, we must recognize the differences between sex, marriage, parenting, and reproduction, and not ban the first three because of concerns about the last one.

But let's deal with that last one.

Most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. There are happy, healthy, bright, attractive people born to close relatives who are productive members of society. We all know some, whether we know it or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. (Sometimes, they were conceived by an abuser, but often, not by an abuser but by mutual lovers.) We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. For example, it is entirely legal in the US and most other places for someone with Huntington's Disease to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children. How can such rights be denied to people who are genetically healthy, simply because they are close relatives?

It is true that in general, children born to consanguineous parents have an increased chance of genetic problems than those born to nonconsanguineous parents, but the odds are still minimal. (UPDATE: Please see this wonky elaboration written by a Friend of FME.) There are US states and there are countries where consanguinamory is not illegal or at least it isn't prosecuted. Sweden will legally marry half-siblings in some circumstances. A comparison of the rate of genetic problems in these places to places that criminalize and actively prosecute consanguinamory reveals no discernible increase in genetic problems in the places that embrace this relationship right.

If a natural talent or gift runs in the family, the children born to consanguineous parents will be more likely to inherit and manifest that beneficial result as well; a birth benefit. But there are increased odds of problem with births to older parents, too. There's no stigma assigned to that, and it isn't illegal for older people to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children together.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too.

The "birth defects" argument also implies that people with disabilities or some other birth defect are living lives so terrible that they should never have been born at all. Yet, there are many such people who are leading happy, fulfilling, productive lives.

But a current problem, in some (not all) cases, is that in giving birth, consanguineous parents will be outing themselves to someone who is prejudiced, and there will now be evidence of their (in some places) illegal love that can be used against them.

There are consanguinamorous parents happily raising their healthy children together. But some consanguinamorous relationships face very real threats. Again, the answer is to stop the persecution and prosecution. There is no good reason to deny consenting adults their equal protection of having their relationship and reproductive rights.

Consanguinamorous or not, anyone engaging in heterosexual intercourse should be aware of the possibility of pregnancy, the various forms of birth control and other options available, and the realities if pregnancy, birth, and raising children.

UPDATE: Jane has a great essay on these topics here.

With all of that in mind, let's look at this thread on a consensual incest discussion board. (The discussion is explicit, so if you have a problem with that, you are warned.)

carebear82 wrote…

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