Another Ally For Consanguinamory

A Young Contrarian Speaks, which presents “rhetoric from a lonely liberal,” offered thoughts on abn advice column that dealt with sex between a widowed grandmother and her grandson, “On Incestuous Grandmothers and Morality.”

Not that I have anything against the pitiful undergrad who dabbled with a potent combination of incest and anililagnia, but it was hard to read the atrocious advice offered by ‘Thelma’ without wincing. She indulged in age-old assumption that men are horny beasts utterly incapable of controlling our lustful desires, while women (apparently even those tottering with creaking joints and wrinkled skin) indubitably play the role of the seductress. This morally dubious judgement was immediately followed by a legally erroneous one- it is irrelevant to bring up statutory rape when the lad in question was clearly over the age of consent in Malaysia (16), and furthermore our laws do not make allowance for male victims of rape.

It is good to have that clarity.

What is so morally abhorrent about incest? The automatic reaction for most people (including myself) upon reading the aforementioned column is a cringe of disgust. This sense of repulsion is caused by a variety of factors, but most obviously by the incestuous nature the sexual relationship. I personally would not be very much disturbed by the notion of the young lad enjoying carnal relations with an elderly woman (though I may find his taste questionable).

“Elderly” women can be great, experienced, caring lovers.

It is the blood-tie, the familial relation that causes that instinctive flinch of distaste to the whole state of affairs.

For some.

The fact that countless people discriminate against homosexuality for reasons which do not stand a moment’s scrutiny makes me wary of not challenging my own deeply imbedded assumptions.

Ask the next person you meet why precisely does he or she impugn the morality of incestuous relationships, and chances are you will get the following reaction: ‘It’s just not natural!’. That exclamation, accompanied by the furore of the eyebrows and grimace of the mouth, appears to be the end of the discussion for most people on the subject. Unfortunately, the argument is one that is equally often employed against homosexuality and it has no merits in either case.

It is Discredited Argument #5.

Firstly comes the question of what exactly is defined as ‘natural’, after all, are humans natural? And if we are natural beings, how can it be possible for us to do anything unnatural? Assume that you are able to neatly divide the world’s phenomena in sub categories of ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’, and you still have the problem that the naturalness of an act has little to say about its morality. There are natural phenomena that are hugely destructive (virus, tsunamis), and unnatural phenomena which we all love and cherish (the internet, vaccines). Clearly it is not possible to judge the moral character of an act simply by whether or not you consider it ‘natural’.

Well done.

A more plausible line of argument may be that incestuous relationships lead to lack of genetic diversity, in other words-deformed children. This is certainly a relevant component to consider, but it hardly settles the issue.

It is Discredited Argument #18.

If we were to condemn incest purely on the grounds of genetic diversity, we would have to denounce all couples who carry a higher than normal risk of passing on defective genes (such as those with a recessive Down syndrome gene). And yet we do not look upon such couples with condemnation but with sympathy. It comes into question what degree of genetic risk is acceptable for our scorn; after all by most measures children produced by first cousin couples only carry a marginally higher risk of chromosomal irregularity. The whole question is made moot by the fact that we live in an era where contraceptives are easily available, and sexual intercourse is done for reasons other than procreation. Since an infertile but incestuous relationship is almost certainly to be condemned in equal terms by most parties, the possibility of deformed children does not appear to be the central issue here.

Well done, again.

The only path left for one wishing to prohibit incest is either an appeal to religion, or to just call it repugnant without clarification.

Discredited Arguments #1 and 4.

I won’t go into the religion argument too closely, but suffice to say that every religion has had its rules on morality bent due to the passage of time, and a great many practices we take for granted today (equal rights for women, usage of condoms) would have seemed morally questionable at time of the conception of most monotheistic religions. You have to employ something further than a reference to divine to justify your belief, at least if you want others to take you seriously. The argument from repugnance is rarely articulated, it is just assumed that if sufficient people hold a consensus in dislike for a certain act then no further justification is required. It should be obvious however, that we cannot simply implement policies and laws on the basis of our individual tastes. The fact that the question even arises shows that at least one other individual (or in this case two individuals) does not share in the popular assessment.

Rights are not reserved for the majority anyway.

By making these arguments, I do not have to indicate encouragement or approval of incestuous relationships. I do, however, point out that the vitriol and revulsion commonly associated with the taboo of incest seems to be rather misplaced. There are much more horrific actions to disavow than consensual sex between adults, and the sharing of a common bloodline does not immediately make it inherently unethical. My own line of thinking that the dynamics of a family structure does make sex between their direct members significantly unhealthy,

See #19.

but I can find no reason to condemn say, siblings who were separated from birth who are later reunited and then wish to have a romantic liaison.

Genetic Sexual Attraction.

When people are informed and sit down and think it through, rather thank letting their personal, knee-jerk emotional reactions to form opinion on law, they’ll see that there is no reason to deny the consanguinamorous freedoms to sex and marriage.

Not Going to Make the New York Times Bestseller List

From Malaysia…

An "Obedient Wife Club" known in Malaysia for its controversial views has published a book urging men in polygamous Muslim marriages to have group sex with their wives, a report said Friday.

I think very few men would need to be told twice.

The club, formed earlier this year, has made headlines with its radical suggestions on sex and marriage in conservative, Muslim-majority Malaysia.

They include earlier calling on women to be "whores in bed" to prevent their men from straying and pursuing divorce.

Some people cheat and divorce regardless.

In a 115-page book titled "Islamic Sex, Fighting Jews to Return Islamic Sex to the World," the group calls on Muslim husbands to have sex with all their wives simultaneously, The Star daily reported.

What’s with hating Jews? And what is “Islamic” sex?

One chapter, "How Sex Becomes Worship," contains unusually explicit sexual descriptions for a Malaysian publication, such as a tutorial on breast-fondling.

AFP was unable to immediately obtain a copy of the reported book, published by Global Ikhwan, the Malaysian Islamic group that formed the wives' club.

I’m sure the AFP will obtain a copy if they haven’t already. It is important for… research.

Global Ikhwan first shot to prominence in 2009 when it formed the equally controversial "Polygamy Club".

Global Ikhwan member Maznah Taufik told AFP the book was exclusively for wives' club members and declined to comment further.

Wait, is this like a Columbia Record Club?

The Star said Jamil Khir Baharom, Malaysia's minister in charge of Islamic affairs, has promised to investigate the book's contents.

Oh, I’m sure he will.

Malaysia bans books deemed to be pornographic or insulting to Islam.

Sounds like there must be many insecure people there.

Maria Chin Abdullah, executive director of women's advocacy group Empower, called the book a "very backward, narrow way of presenting women's role".

"It's really an affront to the women's rights movement," she said. "We have come forward so far to say women are not just sex objects."

People, regardless of gender, should be respected, including in their identity, orientation, and personal choices. Gender equality is essential to full marriage equality. “Obedience” to a spouse, unless, we’re talking about a fetish or kink or a mutual thing, is probably not the best way to have a marriage. Mutual respect, love, kindness, and deference are important.

Man Sentenced to Whipping, Prison for Incest

Once again, the report does not provide enough information for us to have a hint as to whether this was consensual sex or rape. If it was the former, then it should never have been prosecuted.

A visually-impaired man was jailed 18 years and ordered to be whipped 10 times by the Sessions Court here yesterday for committing incest with his 18-year-old daughter.

According to the facts of the case, the 47-year-old father, a masseur committed the offence at their house in Jalan Dang Wangi between 2007 and June 24, 2011.

Is she 18 now, or was she 18 in 2007? The age of consent in Malaysia is 16.

During mitigation, the man, who was unrepresented, asked for a lenient sentence telling the court that he had to support two wives who were similarly visually-impaired and eight daughters, aged between six months and 22 years.

The daughter is now 30 weeks pregnant.

We really need just a little more information. There’s not even a statement from the daughter, the supposed victim. Anonymity can be protected while still informing the reader as to whether this was consensual or not.

Malaysia Sends Adults to Prison For Consensual Sex

Yet another example of how we need full marriage equality worldwide.

A father and his daughter were jailed and fined by the Kota Baru Syariah Court for incest.

So who is the victim, since they were both jailed?

The daughter also bore three children from the relationship. They were held after the authorities received complaints from the public.

I wonder if the rats would want their own love lives subject to prosecution?

The father, 45, was sentenced to a year's jail and fined RM2,500, while his 25-year-old daughter was fined RM2,000.

There’s no information provided about anything actually being problematic. Nothing about the kids having problems, nothing about coercion or this starting when the woman was a minor, or a scorned wife. So I’m left to believe that this was a consanguinamorous situation between consenting adults; essentially a marriage. Now, a home has been broken up, and kids taken from their family.

Polygamy in Malaysia

Here we go again with “polygamy is bad for women.”

Men in polygamous unions are happier than their wives, according to a quantitative survey on polygamy among Muslims.

The survey showed that 97% of the men felt they were getting enough or more in term of tenderness and love after taking a second wife.

For the wives, though, it was another story.

Some 42% of first wives felt they were getting less intimacy, tenderness and love after their husbands married again.

Compared to what percentages in supposedly monogamous marriages?

“Most men who practice polygamy say they married again because they do not want to indulge in sex out of wedlock,’’ said head researcher of the study Prof Norani Othman.

I can’t imagine a man would take on another wife if he is already getting everything he needs and wants in a woman from his current wife or wives, and if what he is giving in return is only enough for her. And let’s remember that marriage is more than sex.

The survey also revealed that polygamy had taken a financial toll on the families of the first wives.

A total of 44% of them had to take on extra work as their husbands could not provide for them as they had done before.

This goes beyond the marriage practices to the larger culture. After all, this is a limited form of polygamy (polygyny only) with a limit of four wives to one husband, and there are other restrictions, especially on women, including when it comes to employment and finances. With gender equality and the freedom to other forms of polygamy (grouping, polyandry), women would have more power over their own lives.

Nobody should promise to provide a certain amount of time and financial resources to someone else and then abandon or change that promise without mutual agreement. The other person should be truly free to leave with their share of the resources if things are changed.

I don’t like to see studies and articles like this used to paint poly bad with a broad brush. There are some women who enjoy polygyny, especially independent women, like a woman who will feel smothered and put upon if her husband is always depending on her for attention.

Malaysia Needs Marriage Equality

Someone was sentenced to a month in jail in Malaysia for getting married. Can you believe it?

A Muslim lawmaker from Malaysia's ruling coalition was sentenced to a month in jail for polygamy on Wednesday after he married an actress without permission from a religious court.

Bung Mokhtar Radin, 50, a leading figure in the Barisan Nasional coalition, and his second wife, Zizie Ezette A. Samad, 31, both pleaded guilty to polygamy last month.

Muslim men in Malaysia are allowed up to four wives, but in certain parts of the country they must obtain written court consent or risk a fine or jail term under Sharia religious law.

Ridiculous. Everyone should be able to freely marry. It should be up to them, and nobody else.

Judge Wan Mahyuddin Wan Muhammad was cited by the official Bernama news agency Wednesday as saying that Bung's "offence should be dealt with severely."

Shame on Judge Wan Mahyuddin Wan Muhammad.

Zizie agreed to pay a 1,000 ringgit (S$430) fine for marrying Bung without court consent.

Activists and women's groups say polygamy is cruel and has deviated from its original purpose in Islam, which was to protect widows and orphans.

This is ignorance. Marriage is about love.

More than 60 percent of Malaysia’s 27 million people are Muslim Malays, and polygamy is illegal for non-Muslims.

Everyone should have the freedom to marry.