Wednesday, November 30, 2016

From Russia With Love

This blog has featured scores of exclusive interviews with lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The woman interviewed below is clearly able to consent to her relationship. They should be free to decide whether or not to legally marry, yet they could be harassed and persecuted if they were open about their love. They are consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone; why should they be denied their rights? If they were to move to another country, including most of the US, they could be criminally prosecuted for their love.

Read the interview below and see for yourself what she has to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly sexy, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourself.Natasha: We are currently living in Russia, and I am a full-time homemaker.

FME: Are you married or have you ever been legally and/or ceremonially married?

We're married in pretty much every sense but legally. We had as big a ceremony as we could get away with, with our close friends, some of my brother's work friends, and our elder sister.

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An Interesting Link

At Reddit, someone linked to this blog to answer "Is It Illegal to Sell Homemade Incest Porn?"

It is important to remember this blog is about real people in real relationships who are suffering real persecution and discrimination because they love each other. It isn't about porn or erotica and it isn't about a fetish people may have that might prompt them to look into "incest porn." Porn, like almost all media, usually doesn't depict reality on a consistent basis. We addressed these issues previously in this entry.

That being said, we welcome anyone who wants to know more about consanguinamory (consensual incest) and especially people who want to be allies for the rights of all adults. So, hopefully, we can shed some light on the issues raised by the question.

First, let's limit "incest" to consanguinamory, so we exclude material that depicts assaults on children and other forms of abuse.

Secondly, let's be reminded that this is NOT an opinion by a lawyer or legal advice. I'm not an attorney and I'm not claiming to give any legal advice.

Even so, this is a very complicated question to answer. So the TL;DR on this is "If you're going to sell any kind of porn, you should consult an attorney who specializes in these issues for your jurisdiction."

Full answer (again, not legal advice)...
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Tuesday, November 29, 2016

Polyamory Terms You May Want to Know

listed and explained "7 Poly Terms Everyone Should Know, Whether You're New to Polyamory or Monogamous" at
It’s easy to get wrapped in our own little communities and forget that we have our own jargon. A lot of words commonly used in the poly community — f*ck buddy, FWB, co-habitate, life partner, LDR, etc — are more general and widely used, but we have a lot of really specific words, such as “compersion” and “nesting partner,” to describe all of the various ways poly relationships can look as well as the experiences poly folk have.
She covers ethical non-nonogamy, polyamory, fluid-bonding, comperson, triad and quad, hierarchical versus non-hierarchical relationships, and primary/secondary partner(s) versus nesting partner(s).

These are good terms to know, and she also has a bunch of helpful links embedded in her article.

She returned with seven more terms, polycule, NRE and ORE, monogamish, poly-fidelity, polysaturated, matamour, and unicorn and unicorn hunters. Again, she included plenty of links.

A while back we put up our own glossary of terms frequently used here on this blog. For more terms, see this glossary by Franklin Veaux that is intended to be “a guide to many of the terms you might hear in the polyamorous community.”
People successfully experienced in ethical nonmonogamy often gain insights into relationships that are helpful to share with their monogamous friends and family. If marriage is on the decline in the West (the percentage of adults in the US who are married is at the lowest in the country's history), it could very well be saved and revived by polyamorous, LGBTQ, and consanguinamorous people who marry. It's too bad they're having to struggle to get and keep their rights to marry or, in some cases, even be together at all.
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Sunday, November 27, 2016

Frequently Asked Question: Why Is Incest Illegal?

It shouldn’t be illegal anywhere, as you’ll see. As always, we note that we are talking about consensual incest, such as between consenting adults and between minors close in age. We are not talking about anything involving coercion or force or molestation. There are laws against rape, assault, and molestation, and they should remain. We are talking about consensual incest, consanguineous sex and marriage, and consanguinamory, whether initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction or not.

Short answer: It isn’t illegal everywhere, but where it is, it is the lingering result of sex-police holdovers, superstition, prejudice, and legislative inertia.

Long answer:

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Saturday, November 26, 2016

The Invisible Asterisk

Sometimes, when someone writes (or says) that they support the freedom to marry or, marriage equality, or #Marriage4All, #LoveMustWin,  or “love is love” or something like “The sex lives of consenting adults is nobody else’s business.,” there is an invisible asterisk. You know, one of these: *

What might really be going on is this…

“Consenting adults should be free to marry each other.”*

*Unless you mean something I don’t like or think is disgusting, like polygamy, open marriage, or consensual adult incest.

I don’t do that. There is no asterisk in this statement…

I support the rights of an adult to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

There is no asterisk after “adult.” An “adult” includes any person, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion.

“Any and all” means “any and all”. If an adult woman can vote, be Secretary of State (or Prime Minister, which we don't have in the US), serve as a Governor, be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, sign contracts, enlist in the military, operate heavy machinery, be sentenced to life in prison or the death penalty (which we do have in many places in the US), and can consent to group sex with three cage fighters she just met, it seems to me an adult woman should also be free to have sex with and/or marry any consenting adult(s), even if that means another woman, or two women, or two men, or a woman and a man, or a married man (not hidden from his existing spouse), or her sister, whether an adopted sister, stepsister, half sister, or full blood sister. All of this goes for men, too, of course.

This basic right means all adults having the same right to not marry at all, and to divorce, and to be free of domestic violence. The basic freedom of association should mean that adults can share the entirety of love, sex, residence, and marriaqe, or any of those without the others, and any civil union or domestic partnership that is offered. That’s a funny thing called… equality. There is no good reason to deny equality. Now is the time to get it done.
So, do you support full marriage equality, or marriage “equality”*?
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Friday, November 25, 2016

Myth: There is Only One Good Outcome to GSA

Reality: What is a good or the best outcome to a situation involving Genetic Sexual Attraction depends on the circumstances and the people involved.

Situations involving Genetic Sexual Attraction are varied. There have been people who’ve fallen in love, married, and had children before they’ve discovered their close genetic relation. There are situations where one person is experiencing GSA but nobody else is. There are situations in which one person involved is an abusive person. Sometimes people experiencing GSA had been happily committed to someone else in a closed relationship. Sometimes GSA involves people who are in dead marriages to others, raising children. Sometimes there is an adult in their thirties or forties and a teenager who is too young to legally consent and not independent.

Some people want to apply their religious rules or their personal prejudice against consanguinamory to say that that sexual affection is never good in a GSA situation.

This blog fully supports the rights of consenting adults to share in sexual affection, but we recognize that not every specific relationship is a healthy one.

For some, spending a lot of time together in-person is helpful. For others, keeping interaction limited is better.

For some, building a life going forward that involves socializing in the genetic roles (parent-adult child, siblings, etc.) works best. For others, it might be more of a friendship. For still others, it might be as lovers.

For a small number of people, the best outcome is keeping a distance or cutting off contact entirely.

For some people, it is best that their relationship not involve sex. For others, a relationship that includes sex for a limited amount of time is best. For still others, relationship that includes sex in perpetuity, such as a spousal relationship, is the best outcome. People should be able to seek the best outcome without the undue influence of bigotry.

There is no single, one-size-fits-all way to deal with GSA. In some relationships, getting sexual is the best the course of action. In others, it wouldn’t be a positive thing. This is one reason why it is critical that people experiencing GSA be allowed to get the assistance they need without criminalization or other forms of discrimination.

See Myth: GSA Causes Birth Defects or the Children Will Be Deformed

See Myth: Sex Will Always Ruin These Relationships Because a Person Needs a Nonsexual Relationship With Their Genetic Relative

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Wednesday, November 23, 2016

Myth: GSA Causes Birth Defects or the Children Will Be Deformed

Reality: If sex between people brought together through Genetic Sexual Attraction results in a birth, GSA does not cause birth defects in and of itself.

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. You know some, whether you know it or not and whether they know their own true parentage or not.

Birth defects can be the result of injury during pregnancy, substances ingested during pregnancy, environmental factors, or genetic problems. It is the last one that people tend to be thinking of, usually, when they repeat this myth. That’s because when both genetic parents carry the same genetic problem, it may be demonstrated in the children. However, this can happen with parents who aren’t closely related, too. A genetic problem may also result in a child if only one parent carries the genetic problem.

Many people who are brought together through GSA don't have children together, due to personal choices, or age, or surgery, or their genders, or some other condition, or even fear of the children being used as evidence in prosecution. See here for more extensive information about this topic.

See Myth: People Who Act on GSA Won’t Be Able to Have Normal Lives

See Myth: There is Only One Good Outcome to GSA
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Tuesday, November 22, 2016

Indiana Sends Lovers to Prison

The US state of Indiana sends consenting adults to prison for having sex, even when asked to reconsider. What a waste of public resources. A ruling from the Indiana Court of Appeals on a consanguinamory case was reported by Dave Stafford at
A man convicted of incest for a consensual sexual relationship with his biological aunt couldn’t persuade the Indiana Court of Appeals that he was entitled to post-conviction relief.
Emphasis ours. This shouldn't even be a criminal matter. And yet, it was. So it makes sense that someone who has been convicted of such a victimless "crime" would look for any way to overturn that conviction.
The man claimed ineffective assistance of counsel for failing to argue in his defense that the man’s aunt was older than 31.

Kyle Pavan of Elwood was 23 when he was charged in 2007 with the Class C felony, to which he later pleaded guilty and was sentenced to six years in prison, with two years executed on work release and the balance suspended to probation. His probation was revoked in 2014, at which time he filed a PCR petition. His aunt, who was 34 at the time, also was charged and convicted.
A sentence of six years in prison for consensual sex. What a travesty! Don't let this happen to you.
In his PCR petition, Pavan relied on I.C. 35-41-4-2(e) that bars prosecution for incest, child molesting, vicarious sexual gratification, child solicitation or child seduction after the alleged victim reaches age 31. The state said the statute was inapplicable and that the prosecution was timely filed within the general five-year statute of limitations for Class C felonies.
“Pavan’s appellate argument is based on a flawed interpretation” of the statute, Judge Robert Altice wrote for the panel, because he argued his aunt was the victim.
Right. There was no victim, and this shouldn't have been a criminal matter in the first place!
The case is Kyle Pavan v. State of Indiana, 48A02-1512-PC-2125.
Can you imagine sitting up on a bench in robes and sending consenting adults to prison for having sex? Sure, it is better than throwing them off of high buildings, but it is still unjust and a violation of basic human rights.

This man and his aunt were not hurting anyone by being together, and yet both were prosecuted. There's no good reason do deny them there rights.

This needs to be dealt with ASAP. We need to remove any laws that discriminate against consenting adults for their relationships. An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.
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Monday, November 21, 2016

We Will Not Go Back

It's understandable why many people in the US are worried about the next four years under a Trump Administration, but we've renewed our call for solidarity and have explained why any existing freedom to marry is highly unlikely to be taken away.

If our word wasn't enough, here's more reassurance from Shannon Minter, legal director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, via Dan Savage, via
“There is no realistic possibility that anyone’s marriage will be invalidated,” said Shannon Minter, legal director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, which has taken marriage-rights cases to the US Supreme Court (and won). “The law is very strong that if a marriage is valid when entered, it cannot be invalidated by any subsequent change in the law. So people who are already married should not be concerned that their marriage can be taken away.”

And Minter says the court is unlikely to overturn Obergefell, the decision that legalized same-sex marriage across the country.

“The doctrine of stare decisis — which means that courts generally will respect and follow their own prior rulings — is also very strong, and the Supreme Court very rarely overturns an important constitutional ruling so soon after issuing it,” said Minter. “Even the appointment of an anti-marriage-equality justice to replace Justice Scalia would not jeopardize the Supreme Court’s 2015 ruling on marriage equality, and the great majority of Americans still strongly support the freedom of same-sex couples to marry.”
Let's continue progress!
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Sunday, November 20, 2016

Consanguinamory and Reproduction

One of the most common reasons given to object to the right to consanguineous relationships is what I call the "mutant baby" argument. Even some people who support the right to consanguinamory and have even engaged in consanguineous sex themselves join with bigots in being strongly against close relatives having children together because of prejudiced backlash or the increased risk of birth defects.

In regards to the prejudiced backlash, the answer is not to let bigots have their way. It is for bigots to lose their power to bully, prosecute, and break up homes. Don't want children of consanguineous parents to have a hard time? Do not give them a hard time.

In regards to the increased risk of birth defects, scientific understanding is often lacking.

Most sexual encounters do not result in a birth. Many people who have relationships or marry never have genetic children together; some people in consanguinamorous relationships choose not to. So, we must recognize the differences between sex, marriage, parenting, and reproduction, and not ban the first three because of concerns about the last one.

But let's deal with that last one.

Most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. There are happy, healthy, bright, attractive people born to close relatives who are productive members of society. We all know some, whether we know it or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. (Sometimes, they were conceived by an abuser, but often, not by an abuser but by mutual lovers.) We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. For example, it is entirely legal in the US and most other places for someone with Huntington's Disease to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children. How can such rights be denied to people who are genetically healthy, simply because they are close relatives?

It is true that in general, children born to consanguineous parents have an increased chance of genetic problems than those born to nonconsanguineous parents, but the odds are still minimal. (UPDATE: Please see this wonky elaboration written by a Friend of FME.) There are US states and there are countries where consanguinamory is not illegal or at least it isn't prosecuted. Sweden will legally marry half-siblings in some circumstances. A comparison of the rate of genetic problems in these places to places that criminalize and actively prosecute consanguinamory reveals no discernible increase in genetic problems in the places that embrace this relationship right.

If a natural talent or gift runs in the family, the children born to consanguineous parents will be more likely to inherit and manifest that beneficial result as well; a birth benefit. But there are increased odds of problem with births to older parents, too. There's no stigma assigned to that, and it isn't illegal for older people to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children together.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too.

The "birth defects" argument also implies that people with disabilities or some other birth defect are living lives so terrible that they should never have been born at all. Yet, there are many such people who are leading happy, fulfilling, productive lives.

But a current problem, in some (not all) cases, is that in giving birth, consanguineous parents will be outing themselves to someone who is prejudiced, and there will now be evidence of their (in some places) illegal love that can be used against them.

There are consanguinamorous parents happily raising their healthy children together. But some consanguinamorous relationships face very real threats. Again, the answer is to stop the persecution and prosecution. There is no good reason to deny consenting adults their equal protection of having their relationship and reproductive rights.

Consanguinamorous or not, anyone engaging in heterosexual intercourse should be aware of the possibility of pregnancy, the various forms of birth control and other options available, and the realities if pregnancy, birth, and raising children.

UPDATE: Jane has a great essay on these topics here.

With all of that in mind, let's look at this thread on a consensual incest discussion board. (The discussion is explicit, so if you have a problem with that, you are warned.)

carebear82 wrote…

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Saturday, November 19, 2016

It Is Not Too Early to Think About the Thanksgiving Holiday

It's not too early for Americans to think about the holiday, which always falls on the fourth Thursday of November.

Thanksgiving Day is a huge holiday in the US, centered mainly around a special family meal. In case you haven't noticed, Americans like to eat a lot. Since Thanksgiving is always on a Thursday, Friday is a holiday as well (at least as far as the government is concerned). Because Thanksgiving is considered to specifically be about family togetherness, it can be a painful time for those who have been rejected by their family because of their gender identity, sexual orientation, relationship orientation, or choice in partner(s). Some LGBT people, poly people, and those in consanguineous, intergenerational, or interracial relationships are reminded every year that even their own family hates them.

Some people make the best of this and plan a Thanksgiving meal with friends. I throw out a special “good for you” to anyone who hosts such a meal this holiday. Keep up the good work. I think such gatherings are much more enjoyable anyway. If you don't have one to go to, consider hosting your own!

But I also have words for anyone who has driven away or banned someone in their family because of that other family member’s identity, orientation or partner(s): Shame on you. You don’t have to like your family member’s sexuality or how they live. But you should reach out to them and support them instead of driving them away. Every person at that table does things you don’t like. Why single out a family member for punishment because of who they love? If your family member has a partner whose family is more accepting, guess who is going to win? Guess who is going to get to play with any grandkids/nieces/nephews? Not you. Think about it. Maybe it isn't too late to make amends and have them over for this year's holiday. This might help.

If you can’t go “home” for Thanksgiving and you are feeling down and you haven’t managed to make plans with friends, consider hosting your own Thanksgiving and invite some friends. Or, volunteer at a homeless shelter or some other charity location that will be helping people that day. Don’t allow sadness or loneliness to take hold. You can find a place where you will be welcomed.
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Myth: People Who Act on GSA Won’t Be Able to Have Normal Lives

Reality: The only hindrance to having a “normal life” for those who continue together in a Genetic Sexual Attraction relationship is the bigotry of others.

Some who’ve been brought together through GSA lead perfectly "normal," even unusually good lives. This is more likely to be possible with the support of friends and family and will be even more likely with decriminalization of GSA and the arrival of full marriage equality.

Until then, many people in consanguinamorous relationships are somewhat closeted. There may be people you know who seem like the cutest couple, and may be great neighbors, who are actually people who were brought together by GSA.

Please help make it possible for more people who've been brought together through GSA lead "normal" lives.

See Myth: Only Defective People Experience GSA

See Myth: GSA Causes Birth Defects or the Children Will Be Deformed
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Friday, November 18, 2016

Myth: Only Defective People Experience GSA

Reality: The only thing that fills in the blank of  “Only ___ experience Genetic Sexual Attraction” is “introduced or reunited close genetic relatives.”

When someone says that only people who are [fill in the blank with whatever thing they think is an insult or pejorative] experiences Genetic Sexual Attraction, they are speaking out of prejudice and ignorance. They might dismiss all people who experience GSA as being lonely, desperate for attention, rebellious, immoral, hypersexed, promiscuous, lacking boundaries, weak, lacking self-control, ignorant, uneducated, freaks, losers, unattractive, or whatever.

It’s not true.

People who experience GSA come from every demographic in every part of the world. There are attractive, outgoing, popular, successful, wealthy, disciplined, educated people who’ve experienced GSA, many of whom have been or still are, sexually involved. Their sex lives may have been rather average or even conservative before GSA. People who’ve experienced GSA come from diverse racial, professional, financial, political, and religious backgrounds.

Nobody's perfect, and it is tempting for the ignorant to point to some shortcoming or something missing in the life of someone experience GSA and insist it is the reason the person is experiencing GSA or having a consanguinamorous relationship. Or, it can be temping to point out how someone is different than you and blame that. It just doesn't match up to reality.

Based on the diverse backgrounds and situations and characteristics of people who've experienced GSA, it is apparent that is not the result of anything being "wrong" with the person who experiences it.

See Myth: Acting on GSA is Wrong or Destructive

See Myth: People Who Act on GSA Won't Be Able to Have Normal Lives
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Thursday, November 17, 2016

Solidarity is Needed Now More Than Ever

There are two major political parties in the US, and due to the recent election, the party that has consistently opposed progress when it comes to diversity (especially when it comes to gender, sexual orientation, and the freedom to form marriages and other relationships) will, as of January 20, 2017, have the Presidency and control both houses of our bicameral Congress. The other branch of the federal government is the Judicial (the courts) will have judges appointed per the whims of the leadership of that party when there are vacancies. That includes the Supreme Court, where there is currently one vacancy.

The good news is that it is extremely unlikely that there will be any loss in the advancements of the freedom to marry. Last year, the Supreme Court ruled for the limited, monogamous, nonconsanguineous freedom to marry nationwide. To change that to take away that freedom, it would take 1) the same court (albeit, with some different justices) overturning itself or 2) a Constitutional Amendment. Neither is going to happen. The Supreme Court is very reluctant to flat-out reverse itself, and I don't think they've ever done it in a way that takes away rights from people. So even if a court case could get into the system, which I doubt will go to the federal level, it isn't going to result in a reversal. Constitutional Amendments are very difficult to pass, and the political will to do it just isn't there. More and more people are seeing that same-gender couples being married is a good thing.

The bad news is that 1) progress may be slowed, and 2) federal agencies may drag their feet when it comes to protecting the civil rights of people who have or are involved with gender, sexuality, and relationship diversities, such as LGBTQ, polyamorous, and consanguinamorous people. It would be great to see the Brown family's case against Utah's ban on polyfidelity reach the Supreme Court and be decided in the best way possible, but that's less likely than it had been before the election. It could  still happen though.

If a few Senators switch parties or Senate seats change parties due to Senators being removed, control of the Senate would switch. Even without that, a third of the Senate will be up for election in 2018, and the entire House of Representatives will be up for election. It is also possible both major parties will get on board with seeking progress in these areas, realizing that pandering to prejudice is, in the long run, a losing strategy. It would be great to have people running for office who will take this pledge.

This is an English-language blog, and as such, we are especially interested in and able to follow developments in countries where English is a common language. For example, Australia needs to step up and get moving on marriage rights. They are behind other English-speaking countries such as Canada, the US, Ireland, the UK, South Africa, and New Zealand. Progress continues to be made all of the planet, and we are interested in that, too.

What is needed more now than ever, within nations and internationally, is solidarity. The civil rights of all adults need to be advanced, not stalled or rolled back. Standing up for all adults at the same time, rather than focusing on limited advancements for this group or that group, is what is needed. An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage, and any other legal arrangement offered, and any of those things without the others, with any and all consenting adults, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Here's how to help.

I answered a question on Tumblr regarding the election that discusses some of the same things.

Here's Jane's open letter to President-elect Trump.
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Wednesday, November 16, 2016

Women Can Have Multiple Spouses, Too

Or, There’s More to Polygamy Than Polygyny

Women can enjoy multiple spouses, multiple husbands, multiple wives, multiple partners, multiple girlfriends, multiple boyfriends, and dating multiple people. A woman can love more than one person, have multiple ongoing romantic relationships, and have multiple ongoing sexual relationships.

Regular readers of this blog may find such statements to be obvious, but way too often, when I read or hear news or commentary about “polygamy,” what is meant is “polygyny” (one husband, multiple wives). Polyandry, meaning one wife with multiple husbands, has existed in tradition and still exists in modern relationships, and it is polygamy, too, as are spousal relationships between multiple women and multiple men, or three or more men, or three or more women.

This blog supports relationship rights for adults regardless of gender. A woman should be just as free as a man to marry more than one person, regardless of their genders or how closely related, and just as free as a man to not marry at all. or to leave a marriage.

Polyamory and Polygamy
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Tuesday, November 15, 2016

Myth: Acting on GSA is Wrong or Destructive

Reality: Acting romantically or sexually on Genetic Sexual Attraction is neither inherently wrong nor destructive. As with any other factor when it comes to relationships, not every situation is the same. Some people just aren’t right for each other. Some people want to keep a vow of monogamy to someone else. Some people want a partner that is close in age, and their GSA relative is significantly older or younger. There are many different things that come into play in relationships. That consenting adults are close genetic relatives does not make a romantic or sexual involvement with each other wrong.

Different people are going to have different moral guidelines about sex, but consanguinamory by people who were not raised together or by one another is not considered wrong by everyone or all cultures. Nor is there anything inherently destructive about it, but rather some find it constructive.
For some, it is the best of all possibilities; it is wonderful, lasting, and fulfilling.

What can be destructive is prejudice against GSA or consanguinamory, expressed through criminal prosecution or attacks by family or others.  There is no good reason to deny consenting adults their basic rights when it comes to relationships and their sexuality. Family and friends might benefit from reading this.

See Myth: GSA is Unnatural

See Myth: Only Defective People Experience GSA
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Monday, November 14, 2016

We Get Letters From Sons

From time to time, people who are in consanguinamorous relationships leave comments on this blog. Here are comments from two different people.

Anonymous responded to a previous comment on this blog's all-time most popular entry.
I also am in an adult mom/son love. Fell in love (and in bed) with mom 12 years ago.
Twelve years! Congratulations to them on their love.
Best romantic relationship of either of our lives.
That's how most people in these relationships feel, from what they've said to us.
No abuse or molestation here, I'm now 51 and mom is 69.
That would place his mother at age 18 or so when she gave birth to him. We'd like to know more, such as if this was a situation where someone else raised him (which would tend to indicate Genetic Sexual Attraction being involved) or if she raised him. They were about 39 and 57 when their relationship became consanguinamorous.

Another response was left after a comment on an interview.
I connected romantically with my mom when I was 38 and she 51-been together ever since.
I'm assuming this Anonymous is also a son rather than a daughter, based on where the response was written. Unless there was a typing error, this would mean his mother birthed him at about age 13, which of course was very young, and making it more likely she didn't raise him or she was more like a sister to him if they were together. There's no indication given how long "ever since" is, but was with the example above, these were obviously consenting adults when they started getting sexual.
I hope you have a successful courtship and loving romance.
That was in response to what was written at the link. It's very important for people in consanguinamorous relationships and their allies to support each other, given the prejudice and persecution that still exists. That's why forums like Kindred Spirits are needed. There is no good reason people should have to hide; rather, all adults should be free to have their relationships.

We would like to hear more from both of these Anonymous sons and anybody else who is in a "forbidden" relationship with another adult or other adults (or their supportive family and friends). Reach Keith at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com, whether or not you want to do an interview for this blog.
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Saturday, November 12, 2016

Frequently Asked Question: Is This Incest?

One frequently asked question is whether dating this person would be incest, or if doing this activity with a close relative is incest. The question is posed in different ways…

Is this incest?
Is it incest to date my in-law?
Is it incest to date my adopted sister?
Is it incest to date my adopted brother?
Is it incest to date my stepbrother?
Is it incest to date my stepsister?
Is it incest to date my uncle?
Is it incest to date my aunt?
Is it incest to date my cousin?
Is it incest to kiss my brother?
Is it incest to kiss my sister?
It it incest if my sibling and I have masturbated in front of each other?

The subtext is usually, “Is it wrong?

First of all, regardless of laws, I see nothing wrong with any kind of physical affection, contact, or companionship between any consenting adults or minors who are close in age, as long as existing vows to others are not being violated. This includes dating, literally sleeping together, seeing each other nude, hand-holding, hugging, kissing (of any sort,) contact with genitals, intercourse, living together, marrying, etc. If these people are right for each other and want this with each other, then it shouldn’t be anyone else’s place to object.

As I always point out, I’m writing about consensual experimentation, exploration, affection, making out, sex, love, dating, partnering, living together, and marriage. I’m not talking about assault, molestation, abuse, or coercion. If someone forces themselves on you, that is wrong regardless of their relation to you.

What is incest? That depends on who you ask. The definition I once found at Wikipedia was

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Friday, November 11, 2016

Veterans Day

Today is the Veterans Day holiday in the US.

Fortunately, “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” which prevented LGBT people who are open about their orientation from serving in the military, died a long-overdue death, and is cold and buried. A LGBT-friendly President serves in the White House. The Supreme Court, while not doing everything it could, has brought about the national limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry. Binational LGBT couples are better off. Polyamory is out of the closet and the polyamorous freedom to marry is gaining support.

I can’t help but think of the men and women who risked their lives (and those who gave them) and endured so many things in service to their country, who weren’t and haven’t been free to be who they really are and share their lives openly with the person or persons they love.

Other problematic laws and policies remain, and, of course, the polyamorous and consanguinamorous still endure the the threat of prosecution, persecution, or discrimination. We're also facing a new Administration that may try to roll back rights.

Shouldn’t someone who risked their life for this county be able to marry more than one person, or a biological relative? Or at least share a life with the person(s) he or she loves without a fear that their own government will be against them? Is bravery and valor negated if a man loves more than one woman, or his long lost sister? Shouldn’t a woman who served be free to marry both of the women she loves?

Let’s thank our veterans, especially those who are still being treated as second class citizens.
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Thursday, November 10, 2016

Myth: GSA is Unnatural

Reality: Genetic Sexual Attraction is a normal and natural reaction to the circumstances.

While it is very common for people who spent their childhoods in the same residence together or were raised by one another, whether genetically related or not, to develop a suppression of sexual attraction to each other (this has been described as the Westermarck Effect), close genetic relatives who were not raised together or by one another don’t develop this suppression towards each other. (Nor do all people who were raised together or by one another, but that’s a different topic.)

They may not be attracted to each other, but they may be. They may even be intensely attracted to each other. Even if intensely attracted to each other, they may not be right for each other. Or, they may be right for each and might go on to have lifelong happiness together.

Studies reveal most people are attracted to people who look like them. Who looks like more you than your close genetic relatives? While not all introductions or reunions result in attraction, many do. And sometimes, the attraction is mutual.

Not only can they look like each other, share genes, and share other traits, but an adult genetic child can look like their other parent; someone to whom the reuniting genetic parent may have had an attraction (especially if the child was conceived through intercourse.) Or, this virtual social stranger can look like your sibling, custodial parent, or other family members, creating a sense of bonding or familiarity.

See Myth: Anyone Experiencing GSA Needs Therapy

See Myth: Acting on GSA is Wrong or Destructive
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Wednesday, November 9, 2016

Moving Forward

Here in the US, we just had a very divisive election. Every election will mean winners and losers. Some dreams will be realized and others will be shattered. It is behind us now and it is time to evaluate the good news and the bad news and move forward the best way we can.

There is still so much to do in North America and around the world.

We will keep working, because every adult, regardless of their gender, sexuality, or relationships with other consenting adults should be free to live, work, love, and play without having to hide who they are or their relationships. Every adult should be free to live and to share love, sex, residence, and partnerships/unions/marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults, without fearing prosecution, persecution, bullying, harassment, or discrimination.

We will keep working to repeal and overturn the discriminatory laws, replacing them with protections, and change the stigmas, prejudices, and bigotries.

We will keep working to protect our youth and anyone who is curious or questioning or transitioning and to let them know they’re not alone and it gets better.

Whether you want to marry, want a divorce, or never want to marry; whether you are gay, lesbian, hetero, bisexual, pansexual, or another orientation; whether you are cis, trans, fluid, intersex, or any other identity; whether you are asexual, aromatic, demi, swingers, monogamous, polyamorous, dominant, submissive, in an interracial or consanguinamorous relationship, or however you identify or love or play, we’ve got your back.

Let’s make sure it gets a lot better sooner rather than later.

Thank you for all you do for the rights of all.

Have you joined the Facebook group yet? Join "I Support Full Marriage Equality."

There is also a group called Supporting Consanguinamory.

Are we Facebook friends? I want to be friends with all who support full marriage equality and relationship rights for all adults. Here I am.

Are we connected on Twitter? Here I am.

Are we connected on Tumblr? Here I am.

If you don't want to connect, still feel free to send me a note. I can be reached at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com
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Monday, November 7, 2016

Tuesday, November 8 is Election Day in the US

Tuesday is Election Day in the US.

It's a Presidential Election, and since President Obama is nearing the end of his second term, he is termed out. This means we are selecting a new President. This cycle has received much attention because celebrity/businessman Donald Trump is the nominee of one major party, and former First Lady (and, more recently, Secretary of State) Hillary Clinton is the nominee for the other major party, which is already historic as it is the first time a woman has been nominated as such. Absent something bizarre, like it or not, one of them will be elected President and will enter office January 20, 2017.

We are also voting:

1) To elect about 1/3rd of our Senate
2) To elect our entire House of Representatives
3) To elect Governors in some states.
4) For various state and local offices and in some states, on some laws.

This blog is wont tell you who should get your vote, other than to encourage you to support those who are most supportive of full marriage equality and the rights of all adults.
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Sunday, November 6, 2016

How Nonmonogamous People Can Avoid Trouble

Believe it or not, there are still criminal laws in many places criminalizing consensual sex and relationships between adults.

It doesn't matter to them how loving, happy, and lasting the relationships are. It apparently doesn't matter to the people interfering that every dollar or minute they spend trying to stop consenting adults from loving each other is a dollar or minute that could instead go into protecting people, especially children, against predators.

In addition to the persecution and prosecution of consanguinamorous people, polyamorists, polygamists, and other ethical nonmonogamists can face discrimination and even prosecution.
Some awesome people put together a very helpful lists of state laws for polyamorous people in the US or considering moving to the US. First, note the disclaimer that there is an ever-present at the bottom of this blog. I'll mostly repeat it here:
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Friday, November 4, 2016

Myth: Anyone Experiencing GSA Needs Therapy

Reality: Therapy won’t always be necessary, but since there is so much prejudice against those who experience Genetic Sexual Attraction, someone who is experiencing it might benefit from therapy.

Experiencing GSA is not an indication that anything is wrong with the person experiencing it. GSA is a normal, natural reaction to the circumstances.

Being reunited with, or introduced to, a close genetic relative who hasn’t been in your life can be enough to prompt therapy, depending on the situation. Add GSA, and yes, therapy can be helpful.

The prejudices, stigmas, and taboos involved in GSA situations, internalized by those involved or not, can be enough of a burden to make therapy beneficial.

However, not everyone who experiences GSA needs therapy. Some people who experience GSA continue to function well without having had therapy.

If someone does need therapy, it would be helpful if they weren’t ostracized or criminalized, and could find a therapist familiar with the issues involved. This is one reason we need to bring GSA and consanguinamory out of the shadows.

See Myth: Only Someone Who Was Abused or Neglected Experiences GSA

See Myth: GSA is Unnatural
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Thursday, November 3, 2016

Myth: Only Someone Who Was Abused or Neglected Experiences GSA

Reality: While some people who’ve experienced Genetic Sexual Attraction have been abused or neglected in the past, many people who’ve experienced GSA never experienced serious abuse or neglect.

People who experience GSA come from a wide variety of backgrounds, including warm and loving families as well as abusive childhoods. The only thing, so far, determined to be common to all people experiencing GSA is that they were introduced to, or reunited with, a close genetic relative post-puberty. Abuse is not the cause of GSA.

If you don’t want someone to be abused, don’t abuse people experiencing GSA. Don’t ostracize them for having their feelings. Don’t criminalize their love. Don't deny them their rights.

See Myth: Sex in GSA Relationships Always Means Someone is Being Abused

See Myth: Anyone Experiencing GSA Needs Therapy
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Wednesday, November 2, 2016

It's Futile to Play Relationship Cop - Assist People Instead

The main focus of this blog is on rights for all adults to be themselves and have their romantic, sexual and social relationships with other consenting adults, and marry, to form families if they want to, and raise children if they want to. We have pointed out repeatedly that most sexual encounters do not result in a birth. Many people who have relationships or marry never have genetic children together; some people in consanguinamorous relationships choose not to. So, we must recognize the differences between sex, marriage, parenting, and reproduction.

Consanguineous marriages have happened all throughout history all over the planet, and in many places, there are still customary. You have some in your family history, it is almost a certainty. Here's a study under the heading of "Science and society: genetic counseling and customary consanguineous marriage."

Consanguineous marriage is customary in many societies, but leads to an increased birth prevalence of infants with severe recessive disorders. It is therefore often proposed that consanguineous marriage should be discouraged on medical grounds. However, several expert groups have pointed out that this proposal is inconsistent with the ethical principles of genetic counselling, overlooks the social importance of consanguineous marriage and is ineffective. Instead, they suggest that the custom increases the possibilities for effective genetic counseling, and recommend a concerted effort to identify families at increased risk, and to provide them with risk information and carrier testing when feasible.
This article was published in Nat Rev Genet and referenced in Journal of Clinical Research and Bioethics
There needs to be more studies of consanguinamorous relationships and how counselors, therapists, and others can serve them, whether or not the lovers plan to have children. Trying to discourage consenting adults from continuing their relationships is mostly wasteful and often cruel, and in insult to their fundamental rights.
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Tuesday, November 1, 2016

Another Example of Why Canada Still Needs Full Marriage Equality

We have said repeatedly on this blog that a consenting adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any other domestic partnership or civil union offered), and any of those things without the others, with ANY and ALL consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Here's another example of why Canada still needs to make progress to that goal. The report is from Cassie Williams at

Betty Wilsack and her sister Margaret Renouf have shared a home for decades.
For 38 years, Betty Wilsack has shared her Caribou Island, N.S., home with her sister Margaret Renouf. They've split all expenses, living as a family while raising Renouf's son.
The pair are now in their 70s. But when one of them dies, the other won't be entitled to the survivor's pension, either from CPP and OAS or their employer pensions.
This is senseless.
In Canada, husbands and wives, common-law couples and same-sex couples are entitled to a spousal pension after the death of a partner, typically about 60 per cent of a full pension.
But people who are part of other types of families, for instance siblings living together, are not given the same treatment.
It's discrimination based on someone's birth.
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