Living Consanguinamorously - What To Tell The Children

A question many people in consanguinamorous relationships have is if, what, when, and how to tell their children about their relationship.

There is no one right answer because it depends on many different factors.

It will be great when we get to a point where it doesn’t even have to be a question, but since most consanguineous lovers are still living in places where such relationships face severe discrimination, often including imprisonment, it is a question some people have.

Most people in consanguinamorous relationships have children, whether they have those children together or by some other relationship or through adoption or third party reproduction, because most people in general have children, so this is an issue faced by many people.

Let’s consider some of the factors involved.

Consanguinamorous Dating

We've talked much about how to live in a consanguinamorous relationship, but only a little about how to initiate one.

What about dating?

As with other relationships, your curiosity or sexual attraction might not be enough, and dating helps figure out if there could be mutual interest and attraction, and compatibility; it helps you get to know each other better, see if you can have fun together, see if you're a match, and bond more.

For some of you, there is a big difference between dating a relative or family member and someone else, because the other person might not know that you intend this to be dating in the romantic or sexual sense. It's a problem many LGBTQ+ people have faced before, and some continue to face, depending on where they live. On the plus side, you usually know a lot about this person already. In that way, it can be like starting to date a close friend: Can you be "more than" friends? In this case, it is can you be "more than" siblings or whatever your relation is? Dating can help figure that out. Even if people already know they are mutually attracted and interested, dating can be a way to see if they are actually compatible.

Laws Vary Regarding Relationships Between Consenting Adults

We've heard so many different misunderstandings about laws as they apply to relationships and sex between consenting adults. Here in the US, it is especially understandable because laws vary from state to state. There are, of course, fifty states, but there are also other jurisdictions such as the District of Columbia, territories, such as Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands, and there are also federal laws, military codes, and laws that apply to "Indian reservations" (small areas where indigenous peoples have some level of self-determination).

If you are concerned about the laws where you are or where you're considering moving, it would be a good idea to see if the laws of that location are searchable online and to consult an attorney who specializes in family or criminal law for that jurisdiction. An experienced lawyer can tell you about how often a law is enforced even if it is still in effect, and might be able to point out ways someone could make it less likely they'd ever be prosecuted.

Some states have laws still on the books that have been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The only reason to still have those laws is a deranged hope that the Court decision will eventually be reversed.

Unmarried sex or cohabitation, interracial relationships, same-sex relationships, certain sex positions, even using contraception or sex toys have all been illegal in some places in the US. It might seem shocking, but it is true.

As the show "Sister Wives" detailed, Utah had been the last state to enforce a law against polyfidelity, or at least saying more than one person is your spouse. We're not even talking about insurance coverage or anything like that. Simply saying that you have more than one spouse has been illegal. It's outrageous, but true.

When it comes to consanguinamory, confusion ranges from "I thought it was illegal everywhere for cousins to have sex" to "There are no laws against consenting adults having sex, no matter how closely related." Both statements are false.

The fact is, first cousins are incarcerated for having sex in a handful of US states. But about half of US states will allow first cousins to legally marry (and the list of states isn't what stereotypes would have you believe), although some of them have some restrictions. That leaves many states where where they can have sex, live together, raise children together, but can't legally marry. Outrageous, but true.

As far as relatives closer than that, in general, 47 states have laws against relatives closer than first cousins having sex. Ohio allows siblings to be together. Rhode Island and New Jersey have no laws against adults being together, no matter how closely related. Some other states apparently haven't criminalized sex between adults and their uncles or aunts (outside of old, overturned laws that criminalized unmarried sex, given that these people weren't allowed to marry.)

None of the states will knowingly allow relatives closer than first cousins to legally marry, with certain exceptions in certain states for uncles and nieces, for example, mostly a nod to traditions from foreign cultures. Traditions are not respected, however, when it comes to having more than one legal spouse.

Note that these criminalization laws and laws denying marriage rights tend to apply to genetic ("blood") relatives even if they were legally adopted to different families and never met until well into adulthood.

Some states may have relied on criminalization of homosexuality (which was overturned) and thus might not have anti-incest laws that technically criminalize same-sex consanguinmory. Laws can get very specific, outlawing certain sex acts but not others between certain people. Yes, as silly as it sounds, some specific sex acts that don't harm anyone have been illegal in some places.

The patchwork of unjust laws needs to be changed. There shouldn't be anywhere in the US (or any other country for that matter) where consenting adults are denied their basic rights to have a mutual relationship that includes whatever form of sex they want to have, living together, and, if they want, marriage, or any other union or partnership offered under law. Nobody should fall in love and then worry that if they move for a job they won't be able to marry in their new state or might even be criminals.

There's no good reason to deny these rights. In the US, it should be obvious that legal precedents have determined that such discrimination is unjust and unconstitutional. But people are understandably confused as many unjust laws are still enforced.

How to Pull Off Living With Your Consanguinamorous Partner(s)

So you're in a consanguinamorous relationship and having the time of your life, or you're considering it, and you want to know about the possibilities and how-to when it comes to living with your lover. Some of you will want separate residences but most of you want to reside together. Someday, the considerations written below will no longer be necessary because things will be better, but for now, these serious considerations are necessary.

On the "good news" side is that, while there is much bigotry in many places against consanguinamory, often including criminalization, so that some lovers can't marry or sex is illegal, there are no laws against relatives living together and most cultures encourage it instead of discouraging it. There is a long history of family members living together. Although there has been an "American Dream" portraying a "nuclear family" married man and woman (not closely rated) living in a single-family house with 2.3 children, the reality has always been different for most people. One common variation has been for a couple (married or unmarried) or a single person to live with their parents or have a parent living with them, having one or more sibling living with them, etc.

Not Something to Fear

At the Too Afraid to Ask Reddit, konqueror238 wrote "Feeling attracted to my older sister during puberty?"

I have a older sister and she is a very good looking woman. During my puberty years my hormones were very crazy, that's very normal for boys during that age.

During those years I was very attracted to my sister's body and I will admit with shame that I used to masturbate thinking of her, it also didn't help that I was also discovering the world of porn. At that time I was very young and didn't understand the concept of "incest", my brain just went full monkey mode at the sight of boobs. It was only after quite a while I stopped feeling that way.

I will take that secret to my grave and she will never know of it. My question is, anyone else that spend their puberty years living with a attractive relative felt that way too?

It's sad that anyone would think they could be alone in having such feelings. Sex education is lacking!

It is very common to have such feelings and attractions, even if most people who do don't admit it. Some people act on their feelings.

It isn't limited to puberty, either. Some have such thoughts and desires at any age after, too, about siblings, parents, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, cousins, grandparents, etc.

The Westermarck Effect describes the "Ew!" feeling many people have about such thoughts. However, not everyone experiences the Westermarck Effect, at least not when it comes to every member of their family.

Find me on Reddit here.

Family With Benefits

This post deals strictly with sexual situations. If you don't want to read about that, skip it. [This was published during the recent pandemic, but almost all of it is still relevant.]

For Parents Considering Consanguinamory

One of the popular pages on this blog is this Courting Consanguinamory page, which has helped a lot of people. That page is generalized, though, about starting any consanguinamorous relationship. This entry below is adapted from an answer I gave on Quora, to a parent who was asking about starting a consanguinamorous bond with their adult daughter. Most of it is adaptable to those considering being with a son, too.

Contrary to myths, this not illegal everywhere. There are a couple of US states and many countries in which it is not illegal for an adult to have sex with their parent(s). Also, there are mentally healthy women who will confide that this was one of the best experiences of their lives. Even where still illegal, very few such relationships are ever brought to the attention of law enforcement, thankfully.

You’d need to be delicate about doing this, not clumsy or rushed. You don’t want to put any pressure on her nor upset her.

Do you know if she is attracted to people of your gender? Could she be attracted to, or sexual with, someone your age? These are things you can find out by talking with her without making it clear that you would like to add a sexual or romantic bond with her.

Discovering Consanguinamory in the Family Tree

I am [or, had been] active on [a certain Big Online Portal's question and answer service], especially when it comes to explaining the importance of relationship rights, full marriage equality, and decriminalizing consanguinamory. Someone had this question...

Family Tree Concerns..?
My Grandfather recently passed away and my Grandmother told us all that her and my Grandfather were never married, they had always celebrated an anniversary (or so we thought,) but didn't understand while she waited till he died before telling us. After further research into my family tree I have discovered that my Grandmother married her Uncle (is this incest!?!), my Mother feels all weird because it feels like her life has been a lie and the only person she could have asked and got a proper answer was her Dad but now he's gone so we are both just looking for some advice or if anyone has been or is going through a similar situation...

This was my answer, which was chosen as the best answer (thankyouverymuch)...
= = = =
Here's what matters: Was your grandfather a good person? A good spouse to your Grandmother? A good parent? A good grandparent? THAT is what matters, not any genetic or legal relation to your grandmother. There's no lie about any of that. Your mother's life is no different now than it was before she knew that information. She's just allowing cultural prejudices to influence her reaction. Your grandparents had what is called a common-law marriage. As long as they were good to each other, that is what matters.

You didn't make it clear, but it appears you mean your grandfather was the brother of one of your grandmother's parents (he would still be an "uncle" to her if he had, at one time, been married to one of your grandmother's parents' sisters without any biological relation to your grandmother). Assuming there was a genetic connection (though it is possible he had been adopted into the family, too), that is still no reason for alarm. This is much more common than people think. People are finding out about this through DNA testing and family records, although family records don't always reveal the truth. If you go back further, it is virtually guaranteed you'll find you have consanguineous ancestors.

You don't have to go too far back in anyone's family tree to find these kinds of things. I doubt there is a person out there whose ancestry has nothing like this.

In other words.... you and your family are as normal as everyone else.
= = =

Just about everyone has incestuous childbearing in their family tree. In some cases, someone was raped, which of course is a horrible, or there was cheating. In other cases, it was true love between people who were not cheating on anyone. If the law prevented them from legally marrying or from telling the truth, that is a problem, a terrible problem, of the law, and just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality. It is not something wrong with the lovers.

Ten Myths About Sibling Consanguinamory

I’ve noticed some common myths expressed about sibling consanguinamory. In this instance, by consanguinamory, I mean everything from curious exploration and experimenting to erotic romance, including masturbating in front of each other, erotic kissing, sexual touching or rubbing, oral sex, intercourse, etc.

This entry is NOT addressing molestation, assault, or abuse.

I’m referring to adult siblings, or minor siblings who are close in age, engaging in mutual affection or experimentation, without coercion, force, or intimidation. It may be two siblings alone, it may be three or more siblings, or it may be two or more siblings involved together with one or more people outside of the immediate family.

These myths need to be addressed, because they perpetuate inequality, discrimination, hardship, confusion, stigmas, ignorance, and fear.

Myth #1 “It doesn’t happen” or “It happens very rarely” or “I don’t know anyone who has done this.” Just because one person hasn’t been involved or doesn’t remember being involved with sibling doesn’t mean it isn’t happening with others. It is, and it always has. Ongoing sexual relationships between siblings are common enough that everyone knows someone who is, or has been in, such a relationship, and far more siblings than that have had an encounter or experimented, explored, or played doctor. Reality: We all know people who've been involved, whether we know it or not.

Clearing Up Consanguinity

Many people get confused about terms like "second cousins" and "once removed" when referring to close but not-so-close relations. Your parent's sibling's child is your first cousin. That person's child would be your first cousin, once removed. That person's child and your child would be second cousins.

Here's a helpful chart that can help explain it.

Source: http://www.sanantonio.gov/atty/ethics/ConsanguinityChart.htm

Remember, there's nothing wrong with experimenting with, dating, or even marrying a cousin. Consanguineous relationships and marriages are nothing new. There are some countries and a little over half of US states where the bigotry against marriage equality extends to preventing first cousins from marrying, but there are many places where marrying a first cousin is legal and common. I'm only aware of a few US states where sex between first cousins is technically illegal, so check the laws of your state if you are concerned. It should be searchable on your official state website.

Consanguinamory is Not Sick

As this blog and others have repeatedly shown, there is no good reason to keep laws, discrimination, or stigmas against consanguinamory (consanguineous or consensual incest sex or relationships) that is consistently applied to other relationships. One of the grasping-at-straws assertions that one might make when all of their justifications for denying rights fails is "people who do that are sick" or "those relationships are dysfunctional."

Before we do anything else, let's make it clear that we're talking about consensual sex and relationships, not abuse. It's not fair to point to abuse, assault, child molestation, etc. by a close relative as an example of how "incest" is "sick".

Alleging psychological problems or mental illness is something best left to mental health professionals, such as a psychiatrist (a medical doctor) or a psychologist. The opinion of someone without such credentials and some experience should be suspect. So, if someone makes the claim that we should criminalize or otherwise discriminate against consanguinamory because the behavior is based on mental illness, they should be asked 1) for their credentials; 2) if they have personally conducted an evaluation of the individuals involved and the dynamics of their relationship, and; 3) if all relationships they personally think are based on mental illness should be likewise criminalized or discriminated against. Usually, calling consanguinamory "sick" is just a thinly veiled variation on Discredited Arguments #1 and 3.

Permission Granted

Dear Reader,

This is your permission slip. This is your license.

If you have had feelings or thoughts, maybe even some sexual contacts, that you’ve been told are wrong because you’re not supposed to be with…

• someone of a different or specific race 
• someone of the same gender
• someone of certain gender identities 
• someone of certain sexual orientations 
• more than one person
• someone older or younger than you
• someone who is a close relative or family member

… you are hereby granted permission to explore.

If both or all of you are:

1. able to consent
2. free to consent per the rules of whatever existing relationships you have that you want to keep intact
3. consenting

…you have permission.

It doesn’t matter if people who aren’t involved don’t like it.

Whether you don’t know if they’d consent yet, or you’ve already gotten together with them & are questioning it, or you’re somewhere between those places, know that…

• You’re not alone - many people have felt, thought, and done this and are feeling, thinking, and doing this 
• It’s not wrong to feel your feelings
• It’s not wrong to think your thoughts
• It’s not wrong for people to consent to share affection or play 
• What matters is consent 
• You’re more likely to regret not trying than respectfully and carefully trying 

We embrace love, affection, freedom, curiosity, experimentation, exploration, and shared experiences.

Contact Keith for further discussion.

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PERMISSION SLIP

The holder of this permission slip is hereby granted permission to fantasize about & otherwise consider and engage in sharing love, touch, sex, kink, relationships, partnerships, residence and more with any and all who consent, as they mutually agree.

Is Polyamory Just a Renamed Swinger Lifestyle or Open Marriage?

No. This is a common misconception.

Swinging, open marriage, and polyamory are all forms of ethical, disclosed, or consensual nonmonogamy, meaning none of them are cheating, but they aren’t the same thing as each other.

Swingers have casual sex at clubs, events, or parties, usually ones that are mainly there or being held for the swinging element. Couples (and triads, and...) who swing have agreed with each other to do so.

Polyamory involves having a dating, romantic, partner, or spousal relationship with more than one person in a way to which those involved have agreed. For example, three people might live together as partners with each other in a triad. Or, one person might have ongoing dating relationships with three different people, none of whom spend time with each other, but all three of them are aware and agreeable to the fact that the person they are dating is seeing other people, not for the purposes of “picking” one of them, but on a continuing basis. Each of them may or may not be seeing or living with other partners. Polyamory can take many different forms.

An open marriage or open relationship is a marriage or relationship that isn't closed to new partners. The people in the marriage or relationship have agreed that one, both, or all of them are open to finding new partners, whether separately or together, whether those partners are for casual sex (like with swinging, or hookups, or threesomes) or a spousal relationship (like with polyamory), or some other way.

People in an open marriage or open relationship might swing, or might be polyamorous, or might look for casual encounters that aren't part of swinging. But many polyamorous people are in closed relationships and aren't open to having new partners. Some swingers consider their marriage or relationship only open for swinging and not anything else; it's not a generally open relationship and neither or none of them are looking for anyone outside of the context of swinging.

So...

Swingers may or may not consider themselves polyamorous.
Polyamorous partners may or may not swing.
Swingers might be in an generally open relationship or only be "open" for swinging.
Polyamorous relationships can be open or closed.

Whether you know it or not, you know people who are in consensually nonmonogamous relationships. You know people who are, or have been, swingers. You know polyamorous people. You know people in open relationships. People of all walks of life find these forms of ethical nonmonogamy suit them and their relationships. Some of them are health care providers, firefighters, accountants, airline pilots, military personnel, engineers. lawyers, educators, clergy, or stay-at-home parents.

Nonmonogamous people shouldn't be discriminated against or denied their rights. Let people have the relationships to which they've mutually agreed.

Frequently Asked Question: Why Is Incest Illegal?

It shouldn’t be illegal anywhere, as you’ll see. As always, we note that we are talking about consensual incest (consanguinamory), such as between consenting adults, and between minors close in age. We are not talking about anything involving coercion or force or molestation. There are laws against rape, assault, and molestation, and they should remain. We are talking about consensual incest, consanguineous sex and marriage, and consanguinamory, whether initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction or not.

Short answer: It isn’t illegal everywhere, but where it is, it is the lingering result of sex-police holdovers, superstition, prejudice, and legislative inertia.

Long answer:

When Someone You Love Wants To Love You More

You may have come to this blog because you think or know someone in your family or closely related to you is attracted to you, or has a crush on you, or wants to get romantic or sexual with you. You may have had a mix of reactions to this, whether you've been shocked, surprised, confused, amused, bemused, worried, flattered, aroused, creeped out, repulsed, nervous, or some combination of these. So what do you do when a relative has a crush or very strong attraction to you?


These Feelings Are Normal and More Common Than You Think

These feelings are not so rare. There’s not necessarily any reason to get them to a mental health professional because they have these feelings. They are especially common when you were not raised by one another or with each other, but even if you were raised together or by one another, it's not unheard of.


These Feelings Aren't Wrong

Their feelings are their own. It is OK for them to have their feelings, and they certainly aren't alone in having such feelings.

And your feelings are your own.


Their feelings do not require you to act one way or another, but doing nothing at all is probably the worst way to react.

If you're feeling the same as they are, or want to seriously consider adding this bond to your relationship, you might be better off going to this entry here.

But if you're somewhat unsure, ambivalent, wavering, or all the way over to the side of being fairly certain you want no part of such a situation, the rest of his entry is for you.


Initial Reaction

Unless you've been hoping for this moment, you should probably take some time to think it over, even if your initial internal reaction was "No!" If you've already reacted negatively to them, there's still a chance to smooth things over.


Are You Sure It is How They Feel?


As we like to say around here, thinking and knowing are two different things.

It’s pretty clear how they feel if they explicitly say that they want to get it on, or they made an unmistakable physical pass at you, or you’ve overheard them masturbating and saying your name, or you’ve discovered that they keep images of you that are sexy or explicit or are very suggestive, or the history/files on their smart phone, tablet, or computer reveals they’ve been thinking about how to get with you.

If you've got a vagina and you find that your underwear (especially used) keeps getting moved or disappears and reappears in their room, that’s a pretty strong signal on their part; there is only doubt if they are the same size as you, in which case there is a small chance they wanted to wear it (washed). If you find that your underwear/lingerie or toys keep getting moved or used, that’s a strong indicator. It is also something I advise against people doing, just FYI.

If they've left this very essay for you to find, then it should be clear.

If you have such clarity, You can skip down to the next section.

But if it hasn’t been that clear, there's a chance they're not making a play or inviting you to. They may not even want to act even if they do have feelings for you in that way.

If you only think they might be interested, it could be a misunderstanding or maybe you are misreading them (or even projecting your own latent feelings).

Flirting or behaviors that would look like flirting to the average observer ignorant of your relation might be an indication, but those things aren't definitive if not explicit or blunt.

Maybe you've found out that they like (or even create) porn or erotica with incestuous themes. This does not necessarily mean they are attracted to you and want to have sex with you and are hoping to have sex with you. It's a very popular genre. Some people enjoy such material or even have a fetish for it without actually wanting to be with their own family members. Porn is usually very different from reality, after all. On the other hand, it can be a sign of interest.

Hints, clues, or signs likely to indicate they're interested:

• They look for reasons to be around you, especially alone, without an apparent agenda. 
• They suggest or arrange for you two to do things that romantic couples might do, even if it they try to make it seem like an accident (such as getting the two of you in a hotel room with just one bed). 
• They have increased physical contact with you. 
• You catch them staring at you or giving you lingering looks. 
• They’ve started or increased discussions about sex with you, especially consanguineous sex and relationships, and especially if it involves “joking” about consanguinamory or something happening between the two of you. 
• They express jealousy or envy towards your (potential) dates or lovers. 
• The people they date or find most attractive have similarities to you in appearance, age, mannerisms, etc. They may even (try to) date your friends. 
• They’ve “accidentally,” or have had excuses to, come in to where you are changing clothes or showering/bathing or have tried to call you in when they are changing clothes or showering/bathing when it hasn’t been typical for you to be in those circumstances together. 
• They are dressing up more impressively than usual or in more revealing clothing around you for no apparent reason.
• They’ve started to invite you to tell them how they look or if something they’re wearing is appropriate. 
• They mention having a sexual dream that included you. Even if they play it off as funny or strange, they could be trying to see how you react.
  

None of these by themselves mean it is certain they are sexually attracted to you, but the more that you recognize them doing, the more likely they are.

If you're still unsure and you don't want to come right out and ask them because it could be embarrassing, you can give them a chance to speak plainly about their feelings for you by talking about the subject in general. If you talk about it in a way that indicates to them that it is safe for them to talk with you about it and they can tell you anything, then they’ll reveal if they do feel that way for you. Some ways of doing this would be to say that you had a dream that included them, or that you’d consider it flattering if someone in the family thought you were attractive. You can say things like, "Is there anything on your mind you're not telling me? You can tell me anything, and I mean anything." Or something like, "You know, I've been thinking about how rare it can be for people to find a very strong, special connection to each other, and it is shame that some people think there is anything wrong with consenting adults loving each other in any way they want." There are many things you could say that will give them the confidence to be vulnerable with you.


You're Positive They Want to Jump Your Bones

No matter what your feelings are, you need to make it clear what boundaries, if any, you need to be in place.

Again, if you think you want to go for it, whether you’ve been hoping they feel that way or you’re curious or want to explore or experiment, go ahead and see this.

If you need limits on what is going to happen, when, where, etc., then you need to discuss that with them, as you should for any romantic or sexual relationship you’d have with anyone. Maybe your limits include cuddling, maybe kissing, maybe simply being naked around each other, maybe masturbating in front of each other, or touching each other or various forms of sexual contact. Maybe you want to move more slowly than you have with others (although many people in these situations end up moving faster than they have with others, and often regret that they didn’t get together sooner.)

If you think there is no way you'd want to get any more physically affectionate or romantic than you already do with them, do you know why? Consider if you’re internalizing a senseless prejudice against something that could be very enjoyable for both or all of you and bring you closer together. It might be a good idea to tell the other person you need some time to think about things. Sometimes, people who are initially shocked or have a negative reaction, after thinking it over, realize they have a mutual interest. The thought that they want you might have caught you off-guard or shocked you. Take some time of think about it. This is someone who loves you and knows you. It had to take some courage on their part to be vulnerable with you if they volunteered to you how they feel.

While there is no good reason to have laws or taboos against such relationships, you may have a reason to not have such a relationship, at least with this person. After all, each person needs to decide for themselves that they’re going to do and with whom when it comes to physical contact and romantic activities.

If you're not going to further or continue sexual or romantic affection, it would be best to let them down easy, and you probably want to let them down easy, unless they’ve been coercive in their approach. Who likes to be rejected?

Some things you might want to say, depending on the situation:

• You’re flattered 
• You love them
• You’re not upset with them 
• You just can’t go there because your feelings for them, while loving and pleasant, are entirely non-romantic and/or non-sexual 
• You’re not open to a romantic or sexual relationship anyone right now (or anymore) 
• You’re committed to someone else/others and do not want to jeopardize that 
• You just can’t take the possible risks
  

Even if you already reacted in a way that wasn’t exactly letting them down easy, you can go back to them and tell them that you’re flattered, you’re sorry you reacted that way, but you were caught off guard, then tell them one or more of the statements above.

If you take the route of not “going there,” be sure to be mindful of what you’re doing around them because you do not want to tease them or give them false hope. It is tough enough for them to deal with the rejection; don’t add to the difficulty.

Also, they may be consanguinamorous as their orientation, and even if they aren't they might pursue a consanguinamorous relationship with someone else. Here's how to be an ally.

If you'd like to contact me to discuss these matters further, you can write me at fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com

(Disclaimer: This entry assumes you live, or would move to, someplace where affection would not be a criminal matter.)


How To Pull Off Living With Your Consanguineous Lover