Mothers, Sons, and the Law

I'm continuing a series here of answers I posted to Quora that got attacked by censors. [This entry has been bumped up.]

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https://www.quora.com/Is-it-illegal-for-a-mother-to-have-sex-with-her-own-son/answer/Keith-Pullman

Is it illegal for a mother to have sex with her own son?

Keith Pullman

I network with, interview, & befriend adults with consensual incest experience.2y

It’s still illegal for a woman who have sex with her adult son in 48 states in the US and many countries.

It isn’t illegal in the US states of Rhode Island & New Jersey, as well as various modern countries, including France and Spain.

Regardless of criminalization, there are mothers and sons having sex in just about every neighborhood on the planet, regardless of class or ethnicity. And there always have been. Sometimes the sex is a very casual “family-with-benefits” agreement, sometimes it is part of a spousal relationship lasting decades, and sometimes it is somewhere along the wide spectrum between.

Very few are ever caught & prosecuted where it is still illegal, but such lovers need to be careful in order to protect themselves and each other.

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NOTE: These specific answers in this series were "deleted" at Quora after being there for a while and being well-received. They were probably hidden from view because some bigot targeted me, as evidenced by the fact that many were deleted in rapid fire.

I have previously appealed such deletions successfully. However, whether or not my deleted answers are restored, I’ll be adding them to this blog. You’ll see for yourself there’s no reason to delete these answers.

Consanguinamorous Dating

We've talked much about how to live in a consanguinamorous relationship, but only a little about how to initiate one.

What about dating?

As with other relationships, your curiosity or sexual attraction might not be enough, and dating helps figure out if there could be mutual interest and attraction, and compatibility; it helps you get to know each other better, see if you can have fun together, see if you're a match, and bond more.

For some of you, there is a big difference between dating a relative or family member and someone else, because the other person might not know that you intend this to be dating in the romantic or sexual sense. It's a problem many LGBTQ+ people have faced before, and some continue to face, depending on where they live. On the plus side, you usually know a lot about this person already. In that way, it can be like starting to date a close friend: Can you be "more than" friends? In this case, it is can you be "more than" siblings or whatever your relation is? Dating can help figure that out. Even if people already know they are mutually attracted and interested, dating can be a way to see if they are actually compatible.

Revisiting Your Youth

Siblings, stepsiblings, cousins, and other close relatives have been exploring, experimenting with, and playing with each other for all of history. This includes, when they are close in age, during adolescence and childhood.

Playing “house,” playing “doctor,” “show me yours, I’ll show you mine,” and various acts of curiosity are very common. As long as aggression or fear isn’t used to create the experience, it’s generally not considered abuse or otherwise problematic for, as an example, siblings who are 10 and 13 to have explored a bit; even less so if the siblings who are, say, 14 and 17 get sexual, or have (deliberately) watched each other or, together, someone else in the residence or connected with the family getting sexual.

Again, this isn’t referring to something forceful, coerced, or  done under duress or threats. Abuse is an entirely different matter beyond the scope of this topic.

Over the years, I’ve been contacted by people who had such experiences, wondering if it was OK that they happened, some feeling “guilty,” or asking if it is unusual that they don’t regret it, maybe if and how to bring the subject up with the other person(s) who were involved.

These experiences are normal, natural, and not rare. There’s nothing wrong with or harmful about youthful curiosity and exploration.

If you weren’t the eldest participant, the person who was the eldest or elder would almost certainly benefit from hearing from you that you don’t regret it and you think of it as a positive or neutral experience, as opposed to an abusive or otherwise negative one. (If that is, indeed, how you feel about it.)

But how and when should you talk with them? What should you say?

It’s best to talk with them one-on-one, privately, in-person.

If you won’t be seeing them in-person anytime soon and you absolutely can’t wait, still ensure that the conversation is private, just between the two of you. A live video call is best, a live audio call is second best, followed by texting in a secure messaging app, especially with expiring (disappearing) messages, and it will be essential that you keep your wording somewhat vague - vague enough that if other people hear it or read it they wouldn’t be able to prove conclusively what happened.

You’re probably going to be nervous, and that’s OK. You’ll just have to have the courage to go ahead and be awkward about it.

Say something along the lines of, “I’ve been thinking some good thoughts about some good memories. I want you to know that I think back on the times we shared privately when we were kids as good times. I thought it might be important for you to know that.” Or, use words that will be positive and effective between the two of you. I deliberately chose to use the word “good” right away and repeat it so as to put the other person at ease. Add a “thank you” if appropriate. Starting off with “We need to talk,” or something like that can cause someone undue worry and defensiveness.

Their reaction might range from denial and refusing to talk about it, to slight embarrassment, to being relieved, to wanting to “pick up where you left off.” Telling them is highly unlikely to have a down side. If they’re in denial, “don’t remember,” or don’t want to talk about it at that moment, don’t push it. Allow them their time.

If, conversely, you were the eldest/elder, it can be risky to reopen that matter first, meaning the younger person hasn’t mentioned what happened since it last happened or soon after. Even if you were absolutely certain (and correct) that this was a mutually positive experience, societal prejudices, shame, and fear might have influenced how someone else remembers what happened. If you do raise the subject, the spectrum of potential reactions is much wider, especially if you don’t currently have a close and positive relationship with this person now. As such, if you bring it up, it should start with asking them how they’re doing and how they feel about your shared youth.

If things go well and you do want to “pick up where you left off,” this might help. It’s is possible for all involved to have no regrets AND not agree to do anything together now, so never assume that just because you had some moment in your youth that anything will happen now.

As always, your comments that follow the rules are welcome and you can write to Keith privately via email at fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com or on the Wire messaging app at fullmarriageequality.

A French Connection

We have another exclusive interview to bring you. 

People in consanguinamorous relationships are everywhere, though consanguinamorists tend to be closeted. Fortunately, some are willing to be interviewed for this blog. As a result, Full Marriage Equality has featured scores of exclusive interviews with lovers denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law. Most can’t even be out of the closet or they’ll face persecution and prosecution under absurd incest laws, which, instead of focusing on abuse, also target consensual relationships.

The couple interviewed below should be free to legally and publicly marry, or simply be together without having to hide, yet they can’t. Prejudice can be deadly. They are consenting adults; why should they have been denied their rights? In much of the world, they could be criminally prosecuted for loving each other this way, and might be persecuted severely in addition.

Read the interview below and see for yourself what they have to say about the love they share. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it ideal, even highly erotic, but whatever your reaction, should lovers like these be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights simply because they love each other this way?

Also please note that someone you love, respect, and admire could be in a similar relationship right now. Should they be attacked and denied rights because of the "incest" label? 

NOTE: This interview has some sexually explicit descriptions inherent to the interviewees’ life experiences and development.

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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe yourselves.

Emma: My family is English, but we’ve been living in France for over 20 years. We originally lived near London and moved to Paris because of my dad’s work. 

I’m 26 years old, caucasian, blond, green eyes. I’m 5’ 3” and not excessively athletic as I do my best to keep my weight down. That’s hard in France with all the delicious food, so I’m not skinny, but sort of a normal sized person.

My mum and dad raised me. They were always both present for me right from the start, sharing my upbringing, my education. When I was younger, my parents both worked in London, so sometimes it was my mum who came home first to pick my brother and I up from school, sometimes it was my dad when my mum was working late.

I did the major part of my education here in France - given that when I arrived in France aged six, I didn’t speak or understand a word of French, but now I’m fully bilingual, which is a great advantage when working with international clients. Jobwise, I’m a PA for a Media Events company in Paris that works internationally. We organise PR and advertising events. And no, I’m no “Emily in Paris,” even if my colleagues and I have watched the series and laughed a lot about some of the PR campaigns featured in the episodes.

I like swimming. We have a pool. I like movies, concerts, traveling and nudism camping holidays.

I have an elder brother who is 28 years old, who also works in the same company but in the Events Logistics Department.

John: I’m from a middle class family from London. I met my late wife at school, we fell in love and when I was 20 and she was 19, we had our first child / our son - then Emma a couple of years later. Yes, we were a bit young to become parents, but we somehow made it work, thanks to the help of our parents. 

My father worked in import/export so I naturally got a job with him, moving up over the years, before taking over from him. I work in import/export of electronics, hifi and other audio/video equipment. Then I had a business opportunity to move to France and take over an office in Paris. I’m nearly 49, already a silver fox as some say; quite tall, I swim and play tennis to stay fit. 

We own a nice family house on the outskirts of Paris, with quite a bit of land and a small forest all around. I bought it while looking for a quiet and secluded area to get away from the busy Paris work environment. 

I’ve been very fortunate with my investments, giving my family enough to live a very comfortable life and little worries about money.

I’m a real geek for technology and gadgets, going to specialized exhibitions - for work, but also to get to see all the new stuff - I like doing nudism camping. We did this a lot back then with my late wife before we had our kids and later with them too, first at some campsites in England, then in France. One outside Paris, another in the South West and our favorite one in the South of France at the Cap d’Agde naturism center.

NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #19

“There are so many people outside of your family. Go marry/have sex with one of them, instead. It creates friendships between families.” There are plenty of people within one’s own race, too, but that is no reason to ban interracial marriage. I have many friends outside of my family to whom I’m neither married nor married to a relative of theirs. On the other hand, don't we all know unrelated married couples who actually drive their relatives apart from each other? Let adults marry the consenting adult(s) of her or his choice.

Telling someone who is happy with their lover that they should dump that person (or even be prosecuted for being with that person) and should be denied their right to marry because there is someone else they can be with instead is an arrogant and usually, very much a cruel intrusion into someone else's life. How would the person who says this like it if someone told them they had to drop their lover (if they have one) and go find someone else, even though they are consenting adults who want to be together and are happy together?

There are people in consanguinamorous relationships who could never find as much love and happiness with someone else, and trying to force them to do so isn't fair to anyone, including the person for whom they "settle." There are people who are consanguinamorous in their orientation.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #18

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #20