Experienced Mother Offers Help to Others

While consanguineous relationships take place everywhere, living in a sparsely populated area can foster additional conditions that foster such relationships. I've covered many consanguineous relationships though exclusive interviews, and while many share certain traits, there is still diversity within the group. Below is a shorter interview that some may find shocking and others might find incredibly erotic, but whatever your reaction, consider that consenting adults are denied their rights to be together in many places. Is that good policy? Whether someone likes any given adult relationship others are having, should people outside that relationship be able to force lovers apart?





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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourself.

Sybil: My name is Sybil Sybarite and I live in the far north of  British Columbia, Canada. I am married to a petroleum engineer, who is married to his job, and I am OK with that, because that is his life's work. I am 5'9'' slim build long black hair and piercing eyes. I am a female medical doctor and an online life coach. I hold a medical degree, and masters in Psychology. I have six siblings and I have had multiple children. My husband and I have been together since childhood and been married more than twenty years.


FME: How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship orientation?

I am bisexual in a marriage with a bisexual husband. We are polyamorists.

Bisexual and Polyamorous

Alexandra Caldwell, who is bisexual and polyamorous, wrote a great piece on polyamory and how it is painted by others, including some in the LGBT community. This was published in July 2010. How does it hold up today, with awareness of polyamory rising?

While being bisexual, lesbian or gay seem to be slowly gaining acceptance in “mainstream” America, there is one part of my life that still begets misunderstanding or hostility from even those within the LGBT community.

It is a shame when people from a community that has been persecuted stand by and allow others to be persecuted, or even join in the persecution. One example of this is when some of those seeking same-sex marriage throw people seeking polygamy or consanguineous marriage under the bus.

She writes about her awakening...

I hadn’t thought of people loving more than one person at the same time, everyone knowing about it and being okay with it. But when my husband mentioned it, it seemed both so natural and obvious that I couldn’t believe I hadn’t thought of it before.

Also, the timing seemed right. I had just figured out that I wanted to kiss girls. Initially, it had seemed I’d only had two choices: I could stay married and try to ignore this new, huge part of me or I could get divorced so I could exclusively pursue relationships with women. All of a sudden there was an appealing option three: I remain married AND I date girls - either together with my husband or separately. For me, the last choice was by far the best option.

Happiness all around instead the misery of fighting and divorce. Isn’t that better?

Polyamory is not spouse-swapping or about casual, fleeting sexual encounters. It is an actual relationship, just like any other romantic relationship, just with more than one person. These relationships take work and commitment, and you have to feed the relationship - all branches of it - just as you have to with any successful relationship. It is not about one-night stands or casual threesomes or swinging.

A polyamorous couple, triad, or quad may or may not engage in those things too.

That I am polyamorous does not mean that I am easy.

Do you see that, bigots?

Polyamory does not threaten monogamous relationships - for either straight, gay, lesbian or bisexual relationships. We in the LGBT community validly argue that our homosexual relationships (and our desire for marriage) do not endanger heterosexual relationships and marriages. They are separate but the same - we all are just two people who love each other and want to share our lives together. The same goes for polyamory - we are just a group of people in various combinations who love each other and want to share our lives together.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Has Past Bigotry Allowed a Limited Loophole Around Current Bigotry?

I again remind readers that I am not a lawyer and not giving legal advice. If my understanding of certain laws is correct, then it appears that bigoted thinking about marriage from lawmakers in the past might have left a loophole, in some states, for same-gender consanguinamorous couples to marry.

Relevant discussions pop up everywhere, and this one popped up at boards.straightdope.com, posted by someone going by the name Amateur Barbarian...

Do incest laws apply to SSM?

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I thought this might have been asked recently but reasonable searches didn't turn it up. Inspired by thoughts reading the current polygamous marriage thread...

Do incest laws and other familial bars to marriage apply to same-sex partners? Could brothers or sisters marry in any US jurisdiction? World jurisdiction? What about the even odder notion of a parent marrying (post divorce or widowhood) a same-sex child?

They only place I'm aware of that will knowingly marry a brother and sister is Sweden, where half-siblings can marry under certain circumstances.

In a subsequent posting, the OP clarified...

I guess the extension of the question is that beyond issues of societal ick factor and psychological dominance/control, incest laws are entirely about preventing overly close genetic pairing. As in other situations, but perhaps even more so, since a biological child can't result from SSM partners, why would the law care? 

Mikeisskeptical added...

There's also a question about weird power dynamics with close relations I think. When people have grown up together, there's always the uncomfortable possibility that the relationship goes back further than people would want to imagine. It's definitely a moral grey area though.

These are forms of Discredited Arguments #1, 18, and 20.

You May Be a Unicorn If...

Chloe Monroe wrote this article of interest, “First Time For Everything: Dating A Couple.” She changed the names of the participants to protect the polyamorous. She started by dating a man who was in a four-year relationship with a woman. After dating Greg, she met his girlfriend Jen.

I felt like a nervous 14-year-old boy trying to figure out how to introduce himself to a girl at a school dance. Luckily, she gave me a quick handshake and from there, we clicked famously. The three of us spent the rest of the night talking and joking, and I lost track of time.

The next day, Jen and I spoke in private.

“Greg and I are not a boxed set,” she surprised me by saying. “I find you very attractive, but I want you to make the decision to be with us or just with him.”

That is something very important to keep in mind about polyamory. That two people are seeing the same person does not mean those two people will have a relationship. They may never see or hear about each other (other than the general agreement of polyamory). Or they could be friends, or could be roommates, or they could be lovers independently of the other person, or they could agree to only go on dates with all three people present. One size does not fit all. Your mileage may vary.

She ended up dating Greg and Jen together.

I felt very happy and slowly it dawned on me.

This felt so normal. So right. So … not deviant at all.

I suppose the feeling of familiarity and normalcy that washed over me that night would have seemed strange to an outsider. I know that it seemed so to me at the time. How could something as radical as dating a couple be such a non-issue? Honestly, it felt very similar to the beginning of many of my heterosexual, monogamous relationships.

She describes a certain wonderful night and, then, it turns out, the end of the relationship was normal, too.

To put it bluntly, my experience dating a couple was remarkably ordinary! I have no regrets about exploring polyamory. I loved the feeling of being with two people who cared about me and knew that I cared about them. In the end, it came down to incompatibility and circumstances, just like every other failed relationship. The fact that we were a triple had nothing to do with it.

It is apparent to me that some people need monogamy within their relationships. It is also apparent to me that some people need some form of nonmonogamy, whether that is polyfidelity in an ongoing polyamorous relationship, something completely casual, or something else. There are also people who enjoy nonmonogamy, even if they don’t need it. Whatever the case it is for any given person, it should be up to that person. Relationships should be formed and conducted per what the participants can offer and what they need, not on what anyone outside the relationship thinks.

The B in LGBT

Assumptions are made about bisexuals that might not be true for any individual bisexual, and there are even gays, lesbians, and allies of gays and lesbians who deny bisexuality is even a real thing. But it is. And bisexuals are not all the same.

Jillian Page wrote at montrealgazette.com about the diversity of bisexuals, and about polyamory.

It can be difficult sometimes being a bisexual polyamorous person (at heart) in a committed relationship with a monogamous person.

Yes, it can.

I’ve been reading yet another good article on the UsBiGirls site, this one about the different types of bisexuality.

More on that article below.

Basically, love transcends gender for me. It’s about the inner spiritual connection. Not that I don’t love sex — I am not ready to join a convent yet. I do love sex with both genders.

The article says there are millions of bisexuals in the world who do not “out” themselves. I’m wondering if that’s because so many of them don’t really have the opportunity to practice bisexuality, just as there are polyamorous-at-heart people who don’t have the opportunity to live it.

Yes, that could very well be.

Adopting Love

There are scores of ongoing relationships I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The woman interviewed below is is a reasonable and kind woman, living life with her love, and is a skilled professional. She should be free to decide for herself whether or not to legally marry the person she loves. Yet she faces discrimination and prejudice for loving the adult she does. They aren't hurting anyone; why should they have to hide their love and be denied their rights?

Read the interview below and see for yourself what she has to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly sweet, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?

You can get more information about her from this interview about her sons.



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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: You currently live with...?

Anonymous Mother: I live with my brother right now


FME: You are with someone considered your brother? Was he officially adopted? Or were you adopted? Please explain.

AM: He was officially adopted by my family when he was two. He was one of two children adopted by my family, the other one was of my sisters. I was not adopted.

A Mother and Brother Support Lovers Denied Their Rights

We recently ran this exclusive interview with Joel and Elijah. Below is an interview conducted with their mother and their brother, who provide examples to other parents and siblings of how to be allies to people who still face discrimination for their relationships. Joel and Elijah are gay male polyamorous twins who are in an ongoing relationship.


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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourselves.
 
Anonymous Mother: I’m a very tall 6-foot 3-inch blonde 42-year-old nurse who lives in east Texas, with my brother. I came from a large family with two sisters and three brothers one of my brothers and one sister is adopted.  Currently I have three sons, the two you have talked with and one younger. Currently they live on their own a few hours away. 
 
Anonymous Brother: I am in law enforcement in Texas and I am a straight male. Currently I am not dating anyone.


FME: Tell us about your twins and their relationship.

AM: Well, as infants and toddlers they had real separation anxiety. They would cry if they got moved apart or even if different people picked them up. They were around three before they handle being in different rooms.  Growing up they always slept in the same bed, and they would often wrap their arms and legs around each other.  In school, several teachers would tell me that my boys never play with anybody else, and a few of them told me I should me take them to a child psychologist, or asked about who or where their father was.

Since my parents paid for them to go a small private school, they never did get placed in separate classes since the school was so small. That was good. because they would not have handled that at all. I also think part of the reason for why they were so close was they were bedwetters well into high school and did want anyone at school learning that.

Throughout their childhood, I always told them they did not have to sleep in the same bed or me and my brother would take them to different events or places. About the time they were twelve I just stopped asking since I knew what the answer was.

In high school they did have a bullying problem, mostly because how small they were. At the start of high school they were around 4-foot 8-inches so they had to wear the junior high style uniforms since the school did not make the high school ones in a small enough size. That, and being gay in a Catholic school resulted in them become rather shy at school.

After I found out about their relationship, they started acting happier both at home and school. I remember that they used to hold hands at the dinner table or on the porch. It really helped lower their stress levels after they told me they were in a relationship. I also let them go on dates with each other through high school, simple things like dinner and a movie. On the first one I told them “no kissing on the first date,” we all had a laugh about that. 

AB: Growing up they were always very close to each other and me. As children, I remember them always being very nice to me to the point of almost spoiling me. Right now, they live near me.


FME: How did you discover the full nature of their relationship?

AM: I caught them having sex in their bedroom. I had figured that they were doing more than just experimenting since I had heard then mention that they liked “various oral activities” shall we say.  At first I wrote it off as maybe it just part of a movie line or a joke and I needed to hear the whole line. But after a while I started to put the pieces together. Granted, it is always shocking to catch your kids having sex, but really I only wanted to talk to them to see if this was really consensual, and if this wast just experimenting. Each of them told me that it was not abusive and that they really loved each other more than just brothers. I still had to ground them for breaking the rules since I said told them when they came out “no sex in the house.” 

AB: They told me about their relationship when they were out of high school. I remember they told me about it on the night they wanted to go out and celebrate their anniversary. When they told me, I just hugged them and told them that they could have told me sooner. I did know that they kissed at times when they were in school but I never really thought that they were a couple.


FME: How did you feel about it then?

AM: I was not that shocked, but it’s still a bit shocking any time a parent catches their children having sex. I had told them when they came out “no sex in the house,” so like I said, I did ground them for that. My brother and I did talk about it for a while, and decided that as long it stays healthy it should be fine. We both also told them about the law in Texas at the time, which made what they are doing a felony and that it was very important to keep it a secret. I thought that maybe it would turn out to be just a temporary thing. I did let them continue to share a bed and did not force them apart.

For a few months I worried that maybe I had raised them wrong or something, but then I learned about the Westermarck Effect. That’s when I thought that maybe it runs in family [to not experience the Westermarck Effect] since I, too, have a relationship with a[n adopted] sibling*. Overall, it took about four months to get over the shock and to understand their relationship. 

AB: I was a bit shocked since I knew they were close but I didn’t think they were like that.  They later told me that they always tried to hide it around me since they did not want to get in trouble at home or have our school find out.


FME: How do you feel about it now? How do you feel about them being polyamorous?

AM: After they had been together for three years, I started celebrating their anniversary with them. As for the polyamorous part, they told me that they were searching for a boyfriend, and thought they had broken up when they first said that. They tried to explain what polyamory was and I got it after a while. Really, I just hope they stay happy and never run in to legal trouble over this.

AB: They are happy and I’m happy for them.


FME: So you were aware of their sexual orientation before you confirmed the nature of their relationship?

AM: Yes, they came out to me a few years before that, and I suspected they might be gay even before that.

AB: They told me that they were gay years before I knew about their relationship. I remember they came out to the whole family in the car on the way to dinner.  Not that I was surprised by this either.


FME: What is your advice to family members, especially parents, who think or know someone they love is gay? ...polyamorous? ...involved with a close relative? What can they do to help?

AM: Be understanding, and remember that sometimes the best way to help is to let them be alone.  But most importantly, let them know that you still love them.

AB: Siblings often tell each other things they don’t even tell their parents. I would be very hurt if they thought they could not tell me these things. If your sibling is gay/bi or anything else please remember to accept them for who they are. You can’t replace a brother or sister.


FME: What is your advice to people who are involved with a close relative about coming out to family?

AB: I know some families are more willing to accept homosexuality than incest.  My advice would be make sure everyone know it is not abusive that will help.


FME: Do you see any difficulties caused by prejudice against them? What's your advice for people who would want to force your sons apart?

AM: I do worry at times that someone will tell the police or out them as a couple and ruin what they have. My advice to them is please be careful and that we will always love you.

AB: Go to Full Marriage Equality and The Final Manifesto.


FME: Hey, thanks! What was family life like when you were growing up? What was your childhood like?
AB: I hardly remember life before my mom moved in with my uncle and he was very much like a father to me and my brothers. I do remember being very close to my brothers. I also remember hating people you said “Oh your only half-brothers” when they found out we had different dads.  Really, I think the oddest thing about our relationship is that from around the time I was nine, and they were 13, I was able to pass as their older brother since I was taller than them. We even once did that for a whole week during one vacation, even mom and dad thought it was funny and even joined in. After they came out as gay I was told by them and my mom that I had to keep that secret from my teachers since they could get in trouble. But other that I looked up to them like most little brothers do.


FME: Do you yourself have any experience with family?

AB: I did have summer fling with a cousin but that was really just a short term thing, we only kissed a few times, went to one movie. Other than that, no, but that’s mostly because I’m not a very sexual person. I would be open to the idea if the person was right.

[*Another interview is NOW HERE about Anonymous Mother's relationship with her adopted brother.]


FME: Anything else to add?

AB: I love my older brothers and I can barely begin to think how much stressful high school was for them because of their sexuality and love.

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Why should the twins be denied their rights? There’s no good reason.We need to recognize that all adults should be free to be with any and all consenting adults as they mutually consent, and part of doing that is adopting relationship rights for all, including full marriage equality sooner rather than later. People are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely.

You can read other interviews I have done here.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this. 
If you want to be interviewed about your "forbidden" relationship or being a family member or close friend of someone is in such a relationship, connect with me by checking under the "Get Connected" tab there at the top of the page.

If you know someone who is in a relationship like this, please read this.

Thank you to Anonymous Mother and Anonymous Brother for doing this interview, and for being so supportive.

Stop Denying Rights and Get on the Right Side of History

In the US, in addition to federal law, there are fifty states and Washington, D.C. (which is not part of any state) and territories, such as Puerto Rico, and each can have their own laws as long as they don't violate federal law. Even counties and cities can have their own laws as long as they don't violate federal or state law.

In considering making a chart or map to depict freedoms for adult relationships, it quickly becomes apparent how ridiculous things can be in some places when people try to keep consenting adults from having the relationship to which they mutually agree. The Supreme Court has cleared away some of the mess by making it clear that there is a right to a limited monogamous interracial freedom to marry and a limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry.

Utah is in the process of defending a law that criminalized polyfidelity, while in (most, at least of) the rest of the states, three or more adults can live together have have children, they just can't legally marry even though there is no good reason to deny them their rights.

Then there are states where couples become legally married just by living together long enough, even if they don't want to be legally married. Well, they're considered married as long as they aren't close relatives. We have to wonder what would  happen if three lovers all moved in together simultaneously... would the law recognize two of them as married after the required number of years? Which two?

We have seen a challenge recently to denying the polyamorous or polygamous right to marry.

About half of US states will marry first cousins, while a few of the others criminally prosecute people for having sex with their first cousins. There are no laws against adult siblings having sex in Rhode Island, New Jersey, and Ohio, but getting legally married is banned. And if those siblings were living as spouses for twenty years and moved to another state, they could be criminally prosecuted for having sex.

Remaining laws denying consenting adults their rights to marry or even just be together are unconstitutional, as various Supreme Court decisions indicate. It is just taking time for that to be worked out. We're here to make it happen sooner rather than later. Ideally, the state and federal governments would go ahead with making sure laws are changed to be Constitutional as soon as possible, but the reality is that it will probably take another Court decision or two to bring about full marriage equality. People suffer while waiting. There is no good reason to continue to deny rights.

A Same-Sex Marriage Still Denied

There are scores of ongoing relationships I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The men interviewed below are consenting adults living life together, with successful careers.They should be free to decide for themselves whether or not to legally marry each other. Yet they face discrimination and prejudice for their love, and could even be criminally prosecuted. They aren't hurting anyone; why should they have to hide their love and be denied their rights?

Read the interview below and see for yourself what these men have to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly erotic, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?



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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourselves.

Joel: My name is Joel and I live in Texas. My brother and I work together. Elijah and I are identical twins. We both have pale blonde hair that we keep just past our shoulders.  Both of are only 5 feet 2 inches tall.  We are in our late 20s, although we look much younger than that. In addition to my twin we have one other sibling, a younger brother, although he has a different dad. We never call each other “half-siblings” and personally I hate the term “half-sibling.”

I make enough that I can afford the life I want, and Elijah makes about the same. I don’t have children, I don’t plan on adopting, and I have no desire to have children. In my free time I play board games, and go to nudist resorts.  I am gay and polyamorous, and so is my twin, but right now it is only the two of us in this relationship.

Elijah: I am the older of the two of us; it’s not like a few minutes matter. I look so much like him that most people have a hard telling us apart, which we both still find fun. We recently celebrated our 12th anniversary, for which our mother gave us cruise tickets.

Thanks to Dr. Endrik Wilhelm

Thanks to a Friend of FME for calling my attention to this interview at dw.com with Dr. Endrik Wilhelm, a solicitor for criminal law based in Germany, about legalizing consanguinamory.

There's a very good map at The Final Manifesto's blogspot. Whatever these maps depict, it would be a good idea for anyone concerned to contact attorneys or lawyers or solicitors where they live who specialize in criminal and family law to get clarification about the laws where they live.

Section 173 in the German criminal code says that sexual contact between siblings is illegal. Offenders face years in prison. Where does the problem lie in the current legal situation in Germany?

The criminal offense itself isn't even linked to the evolution of new life, it's limited to vaginal sex - irrespective of whether it's protected, whatever contraception is or isn't being used, whether or not a woman can even bear a child - all of that doesn't matter, vaginal sex between siblings is illegal, full stop.

It's not an offense to have oral or anal sex, and that's where the Federal Constitutional Court's verdict from 2008 really does get ridiculous. Don't you push a loving couple into a desperate situation once you ban them from having sex? The court said that wouldn't be the case because they'd have 'enough other options' for intercourse. This whole discussion is utterly irrational.