From Russia With Love

This blog has featured scores of exclusive interviews with lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The woman interviewed below is clearly able to consent to her relationship. They should be free to decide whether or not to legally marry, yet they could be harassed and persecuted if they were open about their love. They are consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone; why should they be denied their rights? If they were to move to another country, including most of the US, they could be criminally prosecuted for their love.

Read the interview below and see for yourself what she has to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly sexy, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?


*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourself.Natasha: We are currently living in Russia, and I am a full-time homemaker.



FME: Are you married or have you ever been legally and/or ceremonially married?

We're married in pretty much every sense but legally. We had as big a ceremony as we could get away with, with our close friends, some of my brother's work friends, and our elder sister.

An Interesting Link

At Reddit, someone linked to this blog to answer "Is It Illegal to Sell Homemade Incest Porn?"

It is important to remember this blog is about real people in real relationships who are suffering real persecution and discrimination because they love each other. It isn't about porn or erotica and it isn't about a fetish people may have that might prompt them to look into "incest porn." Porn, like almost all media, usually doesn't depict reality on a consistent basis. We addressed these issues previously in this entry.

That being said, we welcome anyone who wants to know more about consanguinamory (consensual incest) and especially people who want to be allies for the rights of all adults. So, hopefully, we can shed some light on the issues raised by the question.


First, let's limit "incest" to consanguinamory, so we exclude material that depicts assaults on children and other forms of abuse.

Secondly, let's be reminded that this is NOT an opinion by a lawyer or legal advice. I'm not an attorney and I'm not claiming to give any legal advice.

Even so, this is a very complicated question to answer. So the TL;DR on this is "If you're going to sell any kind of porn, you should consult an attorney who specializes in these issues for your jurisdiction."

Full answer (again, not legal advice)...

Polyamory Terms You May Want to Know

Kathleen Burdo listed and explained "7 Poly Terms Everyone Should Know, Whether You're New to Polyamory or Monogamous" at bustle.com...

It’s easy to get wrapped in our own little communities and forget that we have our own jargon. A lot of words commonly used in the poly community — f*ck buddy, FWB, co-habitate, life partner, LDR, etc — are more general and widely used, but we have a lot of really specific words, such as “compersion” and “nesting partner,” to describe all of the various ways poly relationships can look as well as the experiences poly folk have.

She covers ethical non-nonogamy, polyamory, fluid-bonding, comperson, triad and quad, hierarchical versus non-hierarchical relationships, and primary/secondary partner(s) versus nesting partner(s).

These are good terms to know, and she also has a bunch of helpful links embedded in her article.

She returned with seven more terms, polycule, NRE and ORE, monogamish, poly-fidelity, polysaturated, matamour, and unicorn and unicorn hunters. Again, she included plenty of links.

A while back we put up our own glossary of terms frequently used here on this blog. For more terms, see this glossary by Franklin Veaux that is intended to be “a guide to many of the terms you might hear in the polyamorous community.”
People successfully experienced in ethical nonmonogamy often gain insights into relationships that are helpful to share with their monogamous friends and family. If marriage is on the decline in the West (the percentage of adults in the US who are married is at the lowest in the country's history), it could very well be saved and revived by polyamorous, LGBTQ, and consanguinamorous people who marry. It's too bad they're having to struggle to get and keep their rights to marry or, in some cases, even be together at all.

Indiana Sends Lovers to Prison

The US state of Indiana sends consenting adults to prison for having sex, even when asked to reconsider. What a waste of public resources. A ruling from the Indiana Court of Appeals on a consanguinamory case was reported by Dave Stafford at theindianalawyer.com...

A man convicted of incest for a consensual sexual relationship with his biological aunt couldn’t persuade the Indiana Court of Appeals that he was entitled to post-conviction relief.

Emphasis ours. This shouldn't even be a criminal matter. And yet, it was. So it makes sense that someone who has been convicted of such a victimless "crime" would look for any way to overturn that conviction.

The man claimed ineffective assistance of counsel for failing to argue in his defense that the man’s aunt was older than 31.

Kyle Pavan of Elwood was 23 when he was charged in 2007 with the Class C felony, to which he later pleaded guilty and was sentenced to six years in prison, with two years executed on work release and the balance suspended to probation. His probation was revoked in 2014, at which time he filed a PCR petition. His aunt, who was 34 at the time, also was charged and convicted.

A sentence of six years in prison for consensual sex. What a travesty! Don't let this happen to you.

In his PCR petition, Pavan relied on I.C. 35-41-4-2(e) that bars prosecution for incest, child molesting, vicarious sexual gratification, child solicitation or child seduction after the alleged victim reaches age 31. The state said the statute was inapplicable and that the prosecution was timely filed within the general five-year statute of limitations for Class C felonies.

“Pavan’s appellate argument is based on a flawed interpretation” of the statute, Judge Robert Altice wrote for the panel, because he argued his aunt was the victim.

Right. There was no victim, and this shouldn't have been a criminal matter in the first place!

The case is Kyle Pavan v. State of Indiana, 48A02-1512-PC-2125.

Can you imagine sitting up on a bench in robes and sending consenting adults to prison for having sex? Sure, it is better than throwing them off of high buildings, but it is still unjust and a violation of basic human rights.

This man and his aunt were not hurting anyone by being together, and yet both were prosecuted. There's no good reason do deny them there rights.

This needs to be dealt with ASAP. We need to remove any laws that discriminate against consenting adults for their relationships. An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

We Will Not Go Back

It's understandable why many people in the US are worried about the next four years under a Trump Administration, but we've renewed our call for solidarity and have explained why any existing freedom to marry is highly unlikely to be taken away.

If our word wasn't enough, here's more reassurance from Shannon Minter, legal director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, via Dan Savage, via nuvo.net...

“There is no realistic possibility that anyone’s marriage will be invalidated,” said Shannon Minter, legal director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, which has taken marriage-rights cases to the US Supreme Court (and won). “The law is very strong that if a marriage is valid when entered, it cannot be invalidated by any subsequent change in the law. So people who are already married should not be concerned that their marriage can be taken away.”

And Minter says the court is unlikely to overturn Obergefell, the decision that legalized same-sex marriage across the country.

“The doctrine of stare decisis — which means that courts generally will respect and follow their own prior rulings — is also very strong, and the Supreme Court very rarely overturns an important constitutional ruling so soon after issuing it,” said Minter. “Even the appointment of an anti-marriage-equality justice to replace Justice Scalia would not jeopardize the Supreme Court’s 2015 ruling on marriage equality, and the great majority of Americans still strongly support the freedom of same-sex couples to marry.”

Let's continue progress!

It Is Not Too Early to Think About the Thanksgiving Holiday

It's not too early for Americans to think about the holiday, which always falls on the fourth Thursday of November.

Thanksgiving Day is a huge holiday in the US, centered mainly around a special family meal. In case you haven't noticed, Americans like to eat a lot. Since Thanksgiving is always on a Thursday, Friday is a holiday as well (at least as far as the government is concerned). Because Thanksgiving is considered to specifically be about family togetherness, it can be a painful time for those who have been rejected by their family because of their gender identity, sexual orientation, relationship orientation, or choice in partner(s). Some LGBT people, poly people, and those in consanguineous, intergenerational, or interracial relationships are reminded every year that even their own family hates them.

Some people make the best of this and plan a Thanksgiving meal with friends. I throw out a special “good for you” to anyone who hosts such a meal this holiday. Keep up the good work. I think such gatherings are much more enjoyable anyway. If you don't have one to go to, consider hosting your own!

But I also have words for anyone who has driven away or banned someone in their family because of that other family member’s identity, orientation or partner(s): Shame on you. You don’t have to like your family member’s sexuality or how they live. But you should reach out to them and support them instead of driving them away. Every person at that table does things you don’t like. Why single out a family member for punishment because of who they love? If your family member has a partner whose family is more accepting, guess who is going to win? Guess who is going to get to play with any grandkids/nieces/nephews? Not you. Think about it. Maybe it isn't too late to make amends and have them over for this year's holiday. This might help.

If you can’t go “home” for Thanksgiving and you are feeling down and you haven’t managed to make plans with friends, consider hosting your own Thanksgiving and invite some friends. Or, volunteer at a homeless shelter or some other charity location that will be helping people that day. Don’t allow sadness or loneliness to take hold. You can find a place where you will be welcomed.

Solidarity is Needed Now More Than Ever

There are two major political parties in the US, and due to the recent election, the party that has consistently opposed progress when it comes to diversity (especially when it comes to gender, sexual orientation, and the freedom to form marriages and other relationships) will, as of January 20, 2017, have the Presidency and control both houses of our bicameral Congress. The other branch of the federal government is the Judicial (the courts) will have judges appointed per the whims of the leadership of that party when there are vacancies. That includes the Supreme Court, where there is currently one vacancy.

The good news is that it is extremely unlikely that there will be any loss in the advancements of the freedom to marry. Last year, the Supreme Court ruled for the limited, monogamous, nonconsanguineous freedom to marry nationwide. To change that to take away that freedom, it would take 1) the same court (albeit, with some different justices) overturning itself or 2) a Constitutional Amendment. Neither is going to happen. The Supreme Court is very reluctant to flat-out reverse itself, and I don't think they've ever done it in a way that takes away rights from people. So even if a court case could get into the system, which I doubt will go to the federal level, it isn't going to result in a reversal. Constitutional Amendments are very difficult to pass, and the political will to do it just isn't there. More and more people are seeing that same-gender couples being married is a good thing.

The bad news is that 1) progress may be slowed, and 2) federal agencies may drag their feet when it comes to protecting the civil rights of people who have or are involved with gender, sexuality, and relationship diversities, such as LGBTQ, polyamorous, and consanguinamorous people. It would be great to see the Brown family's case against Utah's ban on polyfidelity reach the Supreme Court and be decided in the best way possible, but that's less likely than it had been before the election. It could  still happen though.

If a few Senators switch parties or Senate seats change parties due to Senators being removed, control of the Senate would switch. Even without that, a third of the Senate will be up for election in 2018, and the entire House of Representatives will be up for election. It is also possible both major parties will get on board with seeking progress in these areas, realizing that pandering to prejudice is, in the long run, a losing strategy. It would be great to have people running for office who will take this pledge.

This is an English-language blog, and as such, we are especially interested in and able to follow developments in countries where English is a common language. For example, Australia needs to step up and get moving on marriage rights. They are behind other English-speaking countries such as Canada, the US, Ireland, the UK, South Africa, and New Zealand. Progress continues to be made all of the planet, and we are interested in that, too.

What is needed more now than ever, within nations and internationally, is solidarity. The civil rights of all adults need to be advanced, not stalled or rolled back. Standing up for all adults at the same time, rather than focusing on limited advancements for this group or that group, is what is needed. An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage, and any other legal arrangement offered, and any of those things without the others, with any and all consenting adults, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.


Here's how to help.

I answered a question on Tumblr regarding the election that discusses some of the same things.

Here's Jane's open letter to President-elect Trump.

We Get Letters From Sons

From time to time, people who are in consanguinamorous relationships leave comments on this blog. Here are comments from two different people.

Anonymous responded to a previous comment on this blog's all-time most popular entry.

I also am in an adult mom/son love. Fell in love (and in bed) with mom 12 years ago.

Twelve years! Congratulations to them on their love.

Best romantic relationship of either of our lives.

That's how most people in these relationships feel, from what they've said to us.

No abuse or molestation here, I'm now 51 and mom is 69.

That would place his mother at age 18 or so when she gave birth to him. We'd like to know more, such as if this was a situation where someone else raised him (which would tend to indicate Genetic Sexual Attraction being involved) or if she raised him. They were about 39 and 57 when their relationship became consanguinamorous.

Another response was left after a comment on an interview.

I connected romantically with my mom when I was 38 and she 51-been together ever since.

I'm assuming this Anonymous is also a son rather than a daughter, based on where the response was written. Unless there was a typing error, this would mean his mother birthed him at about age 13, which of course was very young, and making it more likely she didn't raise him or she was more like a sister to him if they were together. There's no indication given how long "ever since" is, but was with the example above, these were obviously consenting adults when they started getting sexual.

I hope you have a successful courtship and loving romance.

That was in response to what was written at the link. It's very important for people in consanguinamorous relationships and their allies to support each other, given the prejudice and persecution that still exists. That's why forums like Kindred Spirits are needed. There is no good reason people should have to hide; rather, all adults should be free to have their relationships.

We would like to hear more from both of these Anonymous sons and anybody else who is in a "forbidden" relationship with another adult or other adults (or their supportive family and friends). Reach Keith at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com, whether or not you want to do an interview for this blog.

Veterans Day

Today is the Veterans Day holiday in the US.

Fortunately, “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” which prevented LGBT people who are open about their orientation from serving in the military, died a long-overdue death, and is cold and buried. A LGBT-friendly President serves in the White House. The Supreme Court, while not doing everything it could, has brought about the national limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry. Binational LGBT couples are better off. Polyamory is out of the closet and the polyamorous freedom to marry is gaining support.

I can’t help but think of the men and women who risked their lives (and those who gave them) and endured so many things in service to their country, who weren’t and haven’t been free to be who they really are and share their lives openly with the person or persons they love.

Other problematic laws and policies remain, and, of course, the polyamorous and consanguinamorous still endure the the threat of prosecution, persecution, or discrimination. We're also facing a new Administration that may try to roll back rights.

Shouldn’t someone who risked their life for this county be able to marry more than one person, or a biological relative? Or at least share a life with the person(s) he or she loves without a fear that their own government will be against them? Is bravery and valor negated if a man loves more than one woman, or his long lost sister? Shouldn’t a woman who served be free to marry both of the women she loves?

Let’s thank our veterans, especially those who are still being treated as second class citizens.

Moving Forward

Here in the US, we just had a very divisive election. Every election will mean winners and losers. Some dreams will be realized and others will be shattered. It is behind us now and it is time to evaluate the good news and the bad news and move forward the best way we can.

There is still so much to do in North America and around the world.

We will keep working, because every adult, regardless of their gender, sexuality, or relationships with other consenting adults should be free to live, work, love, and play without having to hide who they are or their relationships. Every adult should be free to live and to share love, sex, residence, and partnerships/unions/marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults, without fearing prosecution, persecution, bullying, harassment, or discrimination.

We will keep working to repeal and overturn the discriminatory laws, replacing them with protections, and change the stigmas, prejudices, and bigotries.

We will keep working to protect our youth and anyone who is curious or questioning or transitioning and to let them know they’re not alone and it gets better.

Whether you want to marry, want a divorce, or never want to marry; whether you are gay, lesbian, hetero, bisexual, pansexual, or another orientation; whether you are cis, trans, fluid, intersex, or any other identity; whether you are asexual, aromatic, demi, swingers, monogamous, polyamorous, dominant, submissive, in an interracial or consanguinamorous relationship, or however you identify or love or play, we’ve got your back.

Let’s make sure it gets a lot better sooner rather than later.

Thank you for all you do for the rights of all.



Have you joined the Facebook group yet? Join "I Support Full Marriage Equality."


There is also a group called Supporting Consanguinamory.

Are we Facebook friends? I want to be friends with all who support full marriage equality and relationship rights for all adults. Here I am.

Are we connected on Twitter? Here I am.

Are we connected on Tumblr? Here I am.

If you don't want to connect, still feel free to send me a note. I can be reached at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com

Tuesday, November 8 is Election Day in the US

Tuesday is Election Day in the US.

It's a Presidential Election, and since President Obama is nearing the end of his second term, he is termed out. This means we are selecting a new President. This cycle has received much attention because celebrity/businessman Donald Trump is the nominee of one major party, and former First Lady (and, more recently, Secretary of State) Hillary Clinton is the nominee for the other major party, which is already historic as it is the first time a woman has been nominated as such. Absent something bizarre, like it or not, one of them will be elected President and will enter office January 20, 2017.

We are also voting:

1) To elect about 1/3rd of our Senate

2) To elect our entire House of Representatives

3) To elect Governors in some states.

4) For various state and local offices and in some states, on some laws.

This blog is wont tell you who should get your vote, other than to encourage you to support those who are most supportive of full marriage equality and the rights of all adults.

Another Example of Why Canada Still Needs Full Marriage Equality

We have said repeatedly on this blog that a consenting adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any other domestic partnership or civil union offered), and any of those things without the others, with ANY and ALL consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Here's another example of why Canada still needs to make progress to that goal. The report is from Cassie Williams at cbc.ca...

For 38 years, Betty Wilsack has shared her Caribou Island, N.S., home with her sister Margaret Renouf. They've split all expenses, living as a family while raising Renouf's son.

The pair are now in their 70s. But when one of them dies, the other won't be entitled to the survivor's pension, either from CPP and OAS or their employer pensions.

This is senseless.

In Canada, husbands and wives, common-law couples and same-sex couples are entitled to a spousal pension after the death of a partner, typically about 60 per cent of a full pension.

But people who are part of other types of families, for instance siblings living together, are not given the same treatment.

It's discrimination based on someone's birth.