In Double-Love But Denied the Right to Marry

I've done scores of exclusive interviews with lovers, most of whom are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law. It is a privilege to get a glimpse into these relationships consider forbidden by unjust laws or by common public prejudices. Most of them want to marry, whether immediately or not, and it is such a sad thing that anyone would stand in their way.

Below, you will meet "Max" and "Amber." You're not going to see their faces because that would be too much risk for them to take, but I can vouch for them each being attractive people. They also make quite and adorable couple. They should be free to decide for themselves if they will get married. Yet they face discrimination and prejudice for their love, and must hide the truth from just about everyone in their life. They aren't hurting anyone; why should they have to hide their love and be denied their rights?

Read the interview below and see for yourself what they have to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly erotic, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?

***PLEASE NOTE THAT THE INTERVIEW DOES GET SLIGHTLY EXPLICIT IN A COUPLE OF PLACES***



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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourselves.

Max: We're brother and sister who are students and still living with our parents in a very small town in eastern Oregon.

Amber: I'm Amber. Yep, we're still nesting.


FME: How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship orientation?

Max: My sexual orientation is 100% heterosexual

Amber: I'd say mostly heterosexual. I've kissed a few girls. We are staunchly monogamist.


FME: You are in a romantic/sexual relationship with each other? Are you full blood siblings? Who is older?

Max: We are full blood siblings.

Amber: He's my little brother. I'm older by 15 months.

Expectant Parents Denied Their Right to Marry

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Coming Out Day 2015

Even with the recent US Supreme Court decision bringing all states online with the limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry, and some recent laws enacted for the protection and rights of LGBT people, life can be tough for someone whose identity and orientation doesn’t fit in to a little heterosexual, monogamous, "traditional"-gender-role box or whose relationship doesn’t meet the local sex police’s approved standards. Sometimes, a person or the people in a relationship want to come out of the closet. Sometimes they need to come out. For some of these people, it is a little less difficult if they do so as part of a communal event, such as National Coming Out Day.

National Coming Out Day is Sunday, October 11. Here’s the official website, at least for the US. There is much helpful information there, regardless of where you live.

The more people that come out, the more the others around them will realize they do know and appreciate people who are LGBT, or polyamorous, or consanguinamorous, and that such people and relationships deserve equality. So coming out helps progress.

On the other hand, it is understandable that any given person, couple, triad, or quad decides to stay in the closet for now. There’s still so much hate, so much prejudice and persecution, and even unjust laws that hinder the life and love of people who are good citizens and just want to be themselves. I support the decision of anyone who believes they need to be reserved for now for the sake of their safety and family.

The decision to come out is yours. Do you want to come out, and to whom? Your friends? Your family? Your coworkers? Your classmates? Your neighbors? Your crush? The whole world?

Also, if someone comes out to you, the decision to be an ally is yours. If your classmate, coworker, neighbor, friend, parent, child, or sibling comes to you and says they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, polysexual, pansexual, transgender, polyamorous, or in a consanguinamorous relationship, what will you do? Will you choose love and acceptance?

Even if you are heterosexual, monogamous, and nonconsanguinamorous, you may want to come out as an ally for full marriage equality. That alone can take courage, but it helps.

If you are planning to come out, or you do come out, please feel free to share your experience here by commenting.

Dear Abby Gets Letter From Prejudiced Stepmom

In today's Dear Abby column, the first letter was from "REPULSED IN PENNSYLVANIA"...

I am happily married to a great man. I have a young daughter from a previous marriage, and my husband has two teenagers, a boy and girl, from a prior marriage. Like many blended families, we have our struggles, but one is becoming increasingly difficult to deal with.

I don't know how to put this tastefully, but I'll state it this way: My stepchildren are "too close," if you know what I mean.

Many people commenting at Yahoo News are misreading the headline and column and thinking this is about her daughter and her husband's son, who are stepsiblings. But it is actually about her husband's son and daughter, who, if neither is adopted, are biological siblings.

"Teenagers" can mean they are 19 and 18. It could  also mean they are 13 and  14. Or it could mean one is 19 and the other is 13.


And what does "too close" mean? Read on...

They flirt, constantly touch each other and playfully tease each other.

Oh, no! Siblings who are actually affectionate instead of hostile! What is the world coming to?!?

(A few people have even mistaken them for a couple.)

So what? I have gone places with my mother and people have mistaken us for a couple even without any touching or flirting.

My husband doesn't seem to notice this unhealthy behavior.

Assuming they are four years in age or less apart, there is nothing unhealthy about their behavior. Even if they were having sex, that doesn't make it unhealthy.

How can I get through to my husband or deal with this?

As many other people ask, including Dear Abby, didn't she notice this before she married their father? Did she think she was going to change them once she because their stepmother? Why should her husband even try to stop them from being affectionate? If this woman pushes the issue, she's going to find herself out of another marriage.



Their affection may go no further than what she sees. Or, they could be deeply in love or engaging in recreational sex. Whatever the case, as long as this is a mutually affectionate relationship instead of one abusing the other, what try to interfere? There is no good reason.

I wonder if her stepchildren spent a significant part of their childhood apart as a result of the end of his prior marriage? If so, then it could be Genetic Sexual Attraction. But even if they were raised together, it is possible the Westermarck Effect isn't strongly present with them. Or they could just be close and not having sex.

Whatever the case, this woman is not going to accomplish anything good by trying to change them. She should read this.

Many of the comments mistaking this for a stepsibling situation recount stepsibling relationships that involved sex, some of which involved marriages between stebsiblings. Unfortunately, there are plenty of comments hostile to consanguinamory, too.

Persistant Prejudice Against Cousins

Someone posting at glowing.com asked for help with "incest" in her family. Now, that can provoke thoughts of some adult forcing themselves onto a child, right? But she's talking about cousins in a consensual relationship.

I come from a big family. I have three sister and one brother. So this basically what happened between sister 2 and my brother family. 

 My sister 2 has three sons and a daughter. My brother has three daughters. My sister first son (who I call call Sam) is in a relationship with my brother second daughter (who I'll call Barb).

This shouldn't be a problem. Assuming she and her siblings are all full-blood siblings, then Sam and Barb are first cousins, who can legally marry in many places, including about half of US states.

What Really Happened in Clinton, North Carolina?

Chris Berendt at clintonnc.com has given a report that is woefully lacking in details, and I don't know if law enforcement or the news organization share the blame or if one is more at fault than the other.

A Clinton man has been arrested for having sex with a family member, actions alleged to have taken place “a couple years ago,” Clinton police investigators said.

"Having sex" implies this was consensual activity with an adult. Assault or child molestation isn't "having sex."

William Ashley Hines, 42, of [home address redacted], stands charged with incest and two counts of crime against nature.

"Crime against nature." What does that even mean? Consanguineous sex is not against nature.

“A family member turned over some internet communications with an individual he was having out-of-state,” Clinton Police Chief Jay Tilley said Tuesday. “From there we found out about an assault that occurred concerning (his family member).”

An assault is not "having sex." So which was it?

The Independent declines to release names or ages of victims in cases of a sexual nature. The nature of Hines’ relationship with the family member likewise will not released, as it would in no uncertain terms serve to disclose that person’s identity.

But they have no problem providing his home address, even though he hasn't been convicted.

Tilley said the investigation is still open and there could still be more charges brought in the case. The State Bureau of Investigation has seized Hines’ computer and is currently examining its contents.

“This is still an ongoing investigation,” Tilley stated.

If this was an assault or molestation, surely he could have been arrested under those charges?

If this was an assault, the news sources shouldn't be using the phrase "having sex."  And if he is guilty of an assault, he should be locked away in a very bad place for a very long time.

If this was consensual interaction with another adult, the police shouldn't be calling it an assault, and they shouldn't be involved at all.

So what really happened?

We don't really know. Given his age, it is entirely possible this was an adult child, or niece, or nephew, or sibling, or aunt, or uncle, or parent. Depending on the state, it could be a cousin. That the other person is out of state is a reminder that this could be a situation involving Genetic Sexual Attraction.We don't know if he's a dangerous person or a persecuted lover. We don't know because either law enforcement and/or journalists haven't provided that information, at least not through this report. Many news sources report on stories like this with enough information to clarify between assault and persecuted love without revealing identities. Too bad they all don't.

Experienced Mother Offers Help to Others

While consanguineous relationships take place everywhere, living in a sparsely populated area can foster additional conditions that foster such relationships. I've covered many consanguineous relationships though exclusive interviews, and while many share certain traits, there is still diversity within the group. Below is a shorter interview that some may find shocking and others might find incredibly erotic, but whatever your reaction, consider that consenting adults are denied their rights to be together in many places. Is that good policy? Whether someone likes any given adult relationship others are having, should people outside that relationship be able to force lovers apart?





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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourself.

Sybil: My name is Sybil Sybarite and I live in the far north of  British Columbia, Canada. I am married to a petroleum engineer, who is married to his job, and I am OK with that, because that is his life's work. I am 5'9'' slim build long black hair and piercing eyes. I am a female medical doctor and an online life coach. I hold a medical degree, and masters in Psychology. I have six siblings and I have had multiple children. My husband and I have been together since childhood and been married more than twenty years.


FME: How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship orientation?

I am bisexual in a marriage with a bisexual husband. We are polyamorists.

Bisexual and Polyamorous

Alexandra Caldwell, who is bisexual and polyamorous, wrote a great piece on polyamory and how it is painted by others, including some in the LGBT community. This was published in July 2010. How does it hold up today, with awareness of polyamory rising?

While being bisexual, lesbian or gay seem to be slowly gaining acceptance in “mainstream” America, there is one part of my life that still begets misunderstanding or hostility from even those within the LGBT community.

It is a shame when people from a community that has been persecuted stand by and allow others to be persecuted, or even join in the persecution. One example of this is when some of those seeking same-sex marriage throw people seeking polygamy or consanguineous marriage under the bus.

She writes about her awakening...

I hadn’t thought of people loving more than one person at the same time, everyone knowing about it and being okay with it. But when my husband mentioned it, it seemed both so natural and obvious that I couldn’t believe I hadn’t thought of it before.

Also, the timing seemed right. I had just figured out that I wanted to kiss girls. Initially, it had seemed I’d only had two choices: I could stay married and try to ignore this new, huge part of me or I could get divorced so I could exclusively pursue relationships with women. All of a sudden there was an appealing option three: I remain married AND I date girls - either together with my husband or separately. For me, the last choice was by far the best option.

Happiness all around instead the misery of fighting and divorce. Isn’t that better?

Polyamory is not spouse-swapping or about casual, fleeting sexual encounters. It is an actual relationship, just like any other romantic relationship, just with more than one person. These relationships take work and commitment, and you have to feed the relationship - all branches of it - just as you have to with any successful relationship. It is not about one-night stands or casual threesomes or swinging.

A polyamorous couple, triad, or quad may or may not engage in those things too.

That I am polyamorous does not mean that I am easy.

Do you see that, bigots?

Polyamory does not threaten monogamous relationships - for either straight, gay, lesbian or bisexual relationships. We in the LGBT community validly argue that our homosexual relationships (and our desire for marriage) do not endanger heterosexual relationships and marriages. They are separate but the same - we all are just two people who love each other and want to share our lives together. The same goes for polyamory - we are just a group of people in various combinations who love each other and want to share our lives together.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Has Past Bigotry Allowed a Limited Loophole Around Current Bigotry?

I again remind readers that I am not a lawyer and not giving legal advice. If my understanding of certain laws is correct, then it appears that bigoted thinking about marriage from lawmakers in the past might have left a loophole, in some states, for same-gender consanguinamorous couples to marry.

Relevant discussions pop up everywhere, and this one popped up at boards.straightdope.com, posted by someone going by the name Amateur Barbarian...

Do incest laws apply to SSM?

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I thought this might have been asked recently but reasonable searches didn't turn it up. Inspired by thoughts reading the current polygamous marriage thread...

Do incest laws and other familial bars to marriage apply to same-sex partners? Could brothers or sisters marry in any US jurisdiction? World jurisdiction? What about the even odder notion of a parent marrying (post divorce or widowhood) a same-sex child?

They only place I'm aware of that will knowingly marry a brother and sister is Sweden, where half-siblings can marry under certain circumstances.

In a subsequent posting, the OP clarified...

I guess the extension of the question is that beyond issues of societal ick factor and psychological dominance/control, incest laws are entirely about preventing overly close genetic pairing. As in other situations, but perhaps even more so, since a biological child can't result from SSM partners, why would the law care? 

Mikeisskeptical added...

There's also a question about weird power dynamics with close relations I think. When people have grown up together, there's always the uncomfortable possibility that the relationship goes back further than people would want to imagine. It's definitely a moral grey area though.

These are forms of Discredited Arguments #1, 18, and 20.

You May Be a Unicorn If...

Chloe Monroe wrote this article of interest, “First Time For Everything: Dating A Couple.” She changed the names of the participants to protect the polyamorous. She started by dating a man who was in a four-year relationship with a woman. After dating Greg, she met his girlfriend Jen.

I felt like a nervous 14-year-old boy trying to figure out how to introduce himself to a girl at a school dance. Luckily, she gave me a quick handshake and from there, we clicked famously. The three of us spent the rest of the night talking and joking, and I lost track of time.

The next day, Jen and I spoke in private.

“Greg and I are not a boxed set,” she surprised me by saying. “I find you very attractive, but I want you to make the decision to be with us or just with him.”

That is something very important to keep in mind about polyamory. That two people are seeing the same person does not mean those two people will have a relationship. They may never see or hear about each other (other than the general agreement of polyamory). Or they could be friends, or could be roommates, or they could be lovers independently of the other person, or they could agree to only go on dates with all three people present. One size does not fit all. Your mileage may vary.

She ended up dating Greg and Jen together.

I felt very happy and slowly it dawned on me.

This felt so normal. So right. So … not deviant at all.

I suppose the feeling of familiarity and normalcy that washed over me that night would have seemed strange to an outsider. I know that it seemed so to me at the time. How could something as radical as dating a couple be such a non-issue? Honestly, it felt very similar to the beginning of many of my heterosexual, monogamous relationships.

She describes a certain wonderful night and, then, it turns out, the end of the relationship was normal, too.

To put it bluntly, my experience dating a couple was remarkably ordinary! I have no regrets about exploring polyamory. I loved the feeling of being with two people who cared about me and knew that I cared about them. In the end, it came down to incompatibility and circumstances, just like every other failed relationship. The fact that we were a triple had nothing to do with it.

It is apparent to me that some people need monogamy within their relationships. It is also apparent to me that some people need some form of nonmonogamy, whether that is polyfidelity in an ongoing polyamorous relationship, something completely casual, or something else. There are also people who enjoy nonmonogamy, even if they don’t need it. Whatever the case it is for any given person, it should be up to that person. Relationships should be formed and conducted per what the participants can offer and what they need, not on what anyone outside the relationship thinks.

The B in LGBT

Assumptions are made about bisexuals that might not be true for any individual bisexual, and there are even gays, lesbians, and allies of gays and lesbians who deny bisexuality is even a real thing. But it is. And bisexuals are not all the same.

Jillian Page wrote at montrealgazette.com about the diversity of bisexuals, and about polyamory.

It can be difficult sometimes being a bisexual polyamorous person (at heart) in a committed relationship with a monogamous person.

Yes, it can.

I’ve been reading yet another good article on the UsBiGirls site, this one about the different types of bisexuality.

More on that article below.

Basically, love transcends gender for me. It’s about the inner spiritual connection. Not that I don’t love sex — I am not ready to join a convent yet. I do love sex with both genders.

The article says there are millions of bisexuals in the world who do not “out” themselves. I’m wondering if that’s because so many of them don’t really have the opportunity to practice bisexuality, just as there are polyamorous-at-heart people who don’t have the opportunity to live it.

Yes, that could very well be.

Adopting Love

There are scores of ongoing relationships I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The woman interviewed below is is a reasonable and kind woman, living life with her love, and is a skilled professional. She should be free to decide for herself whether or not to legally marry the person she loves. Yet she faces discrimination and prejudice for loving the adult she does. They aren't hurting anyone; why should they have to hide their love and be denied their rights?

Read the interview below and see for yourself what she has to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly sweet, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?

You can get more information about her from this interview about her sons.



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FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: You currently live with...?

Anonymous Mother: I live with my brother right now


FME: You are with someone considered your brother? Was he officially adopted? Or were you adopted? Please explain.

AM: He was officially adopted by my family when he was two. He was one of two children adopted by my family, the other one was of my sisters. I was not adopted.