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Monday, July 27, 2020

Consanguinamory and Reproduction

One of the most common reasons given to object to the right to consanguineous relationships is what I call the "mutant baby" argument. Even some people who support the right to consanguinamory and have even engaged in consanguineous sex themselves join with bigots in being strongly against close relatives having children together because of prejudiced backlash or the increased risk of birth defects.

In regards to the prejudiced backlash, the answer is not to let bigots have their way. It is for bigots to lose their power to bully, prosecute, and break up homes. Don't want children of consanguineous parents to have a hard time? Do not give them a hard time.

In regards to the increased risk of birth defects, scientific understanding is often lacking.

Most sexual encounters do not result in a birth. Many people who have relationships or marry never have genetic children together; some people in consanguinamorous relationships choose not to. So, we must recognize the differences between sex, marriage, parenting, and reproduction, and not ban the first three because of concerns about the last one.

But let's deal with that last one.

Most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. There are happy, healthy, bright, attractive people born to close relatives who are productive members of society. We all know some, whether we know it or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. (Sometimes, they were conceived by an abuser, but often, not by an abuser but by mutual lovers.) We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. For example, it is entirely legal in the US and most other places for someone with Huntington's Disease to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children. How can such rights be denied to people who are genetically healthy, simply because they are close relatives?

It is true that in general, children born to consanguineous parents have an increased chance of genetic problems than those born to nonconsanguineous parents, but the odds are still minimal. (UPDATE: Please see this wonky elaboration written by a Friend of FME.) There are US states and there are countries where consanguinamory is not illegal or at least it isn't prosecuted. Sweden will legally marry half-siblings in some circumstances. A comparison of the rate of genetic problems in these places to places that criminalize and actively prosecute consanguinamory reveals no discernible increase in genetic problems in the places that embrace this relationship right.

If a natural talent or gift runs in the family, the children born to consanguineous parents will be more likely to inherit and manifest that beneficial result as well; a birth benefit. But there are increased odds of problem with births to older parents, too. There's no stigma assigned to that, and it isn't illegal for older people to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children together.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too.

The "birth defects" argument also implies that people with disabilities or some other birth defect are living lives so terrible that they should never have been born at all. Yet, there are many such people who are leading happy, fulfilling, productive lives.

But a current problem, in some (not all) cases, is that in giving birth, consanguineous parents will be outing themselves to someone who is prejudiced, and there will now be evidence of their (in some places) illegal love that can be used against them.

There are consanguinamorous parents happily raising their healthy children together. But some consanguinamorous relationships face very real threats. Again, the answer is to stop the persecution and prosecution. There is no good reason to deny consenting adults their equal protection of having their relationship and reproductive rights.

Consanguinamorous or not, anyone engaging in heterosexual intercourse should be aware of the possibility of pregnancy, the various forms of birth control and other options available, and the realities if pregnancy, birth, and raising children.

UPDATE: Jane has a great essay on these topics here.

With all of that in mind, let's look at this thread on a consensual incest discussion board. (The discussion is explicit, so if you have a problem with that, you are warned.)

carebear82 wrote…

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Sunday, July 26, 2020

Lies and Damned Lies About GSA and Full Marriage Equality

This blog was cited in a nymag.com article by Alexa Tsoulis-Reay on reunion Genetic Sexual Attraction between a father and daughter. The article went viral and many media personalities have spoken about it, from the usual anti-equality bigots, to others who apply double-standards to the situation, to people who are allies. [This entry is being bumped up after being posted a while ago.]

A few haters wrote to us. Some people who are experiencing GSA for themselves have contacted us. Both of those are things that tend to happen anyway. More media production staff have been contacting us, asking for people in consanguinamorous relationships who are willing to be on a show or in a series or documentaries.

So far, I haven’t seen the haters or bigots explain exactly what is wrong with consenting adults expressing their love for each other. The bigotry is giving way to equality and freedom and the haters are getting desperate. Doing the rhetorical equivalent of jumping up and down, gasping, and waving your hands around isn’t an argument.

From Alexa Tsoulis-Reay’s original article…
Consensual incest between fathers and their daughters remains the least reported and perhaps the most taboo sort of GSA relationship. Keith Pullman, who runs a marriage equality blog, has personally talked to over 20 GSA couples and notes that he’s only had a few father-daughter couples speak out, speculating that many of them fear that others will assume the daughter must have been abused in childhood…
The only quibble I have with that is that I’ve published interviews with people in about 20 GSA situations. I’ve communicated with many more people than that about their experiences with GSA. Not everyone wants to do an interview, of course. Just look at all of the hate these lovers are sent.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2020

Living Consanguinamorously - Dating Outside the Family

"Is it cheating to keep or start being with my relative while dating people outside the family?"
Cheating, which is not to be confused with ethical nonmonogamy, is violating existing agreements with one or more lovers while letting them believe the agreement continues to be in effect and unaltered. So if you have an ongoing sexual relationship with a close relative or family member you will keep, or you are pursuing one, you should not indicate to potential new lovers outside the family that you'll be sexually exclusive with them.

While many people find consanguinamorous relationships to be the best, or are consang in orientation, others are polyamorous (especially as an orientation) and either don't find other consanguineous lovers or have a need for someone who happens to be outside of the family. They might even want a unrelated lover as practical matter, whether due to discrimination against consanguinamory or not. Please do not make someone an unwitting beard, however; it's generally a bad idea to deceive someone entering into a committed relationship with you because you aren't or can't be out about your orientation, relationships, or sex life.

There is not necessarily a need to tell potential new lovers you're involved in or pursuing consanguinamory. In most cases, outing yourself would be a bad idea, especially since consanguinamory is still illegal in many places. However, in many more places, ethical nonmonogamy has mostly been decriminalized or wasn't criminalized in the first place, depending on where you are, so it is far less of a problem to be out as an ethical nonmonogamist.


Do It This Way

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Monday, July 20, 2020

Sometimes the Ice Just Needs Breaking

Anonymous submitted this at this blog's sister Tumblr.
Hi, Keith. If a mother and son love each other and feel attraction between them, I see no reason they could not date or make love. Even if they just want to have casual sex. Many sons and mothers living together and dreaming about each other. They only need to break the ice to finally get closer as they intend!
Read how I responded.
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Sunday, July 19, 2020

Lies and Damned Lies About Polygamy

[Note: I am bumping up this previous entry because it is as relevant as ever. Polygamy is not something to escape from, fear, or prosecute. Abusive people are. Polygamy doesn't harm women, children, or teen boys, abusers do. The same goes for monogamy.]

Good ol’ tool of anti-equality forces, Professor Joe Henrich of the University of B.C., is back in the news. This article comes with a picture of Bountiful, B.C. (which is NOT the picture shown here) along with this text…

New research says that polygamy, which is practiced in Bountiful, B.C., leads to increased crime.

Right. Everyone avoids driving near Bountiful because of the high crime rate.

Prof. Joe Henrich found that when rich men take more than one wife, it leaves a deficit of women leading to increased fighting and competition for the remaining women.

Got that? You non-wealthy or unmarried guys are just a bunch of criminals.

Henrich is taking about women as though they have no minds of their own and are nothing but property, akin to cars.

Rich men can “take” more than one woman, marriage or not. Shall we ban all nonmonogamy? Or, since it might lower the crime rate according to this line of thinking, shall we require a woman to find an unmarried man and keep him busy so he won’t go around being a violent criminal?

"You have low-status men who are desperate for resources," said Henrich, a professor in the departments of psychology and economics. "More polygamy leads to a greater proportion of unmarried men, which leads to increased crime."

How does Henrich explain “low status” men who marry a woman and support her decision to not earn income as she tends to the children or earn less income than she and their children will spend? Wouldn’t it make sense, in Henrich’s view, for such men to never marry and have children, so as to be less “desperate for resources?”

Henrich and his co-authors studied societies where polygamy is prevalent, trying to discover the consequences.

Did they also conclude that polygamy causes high amounts of melanin?
"The scarcity of marriageable women in polygamous cultures increases competition among men for the remaining unmarried women," said Henrich. "The greater competition increases the likelihood men in polygamous communities will resort to criminal behaviour to gain resources and women."

I wonder why the article doesn’t cite examples?

I also wonder how much funding for this, or how much of Henrich’s pay, comes from the very government that has banned the polygamous freedom to marry and is actively attacking polygynous families?

We’ve already debunked all of this here, here, here, here, here, and here. We will need many more dung beetles to clear this pile up.

An adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults. These excuses to deny full marriage equality are flimsy masks that fail to hide festering bigotry.
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Friday, July 17, 2020

When Your Spouse Experiences GSA

Advice columns, especially ones focusing on relationships, get far more letters about consanguinamory and Genetic Sexual Attraction than they'll ever print, but sometimes one makes it through. This one is in the column for Deidre Sanders, Agony Aunt and thesun.co.uk under the title of "SIDELINED I’m uncomfortable with how close my wife and her half-brother have become."
A HALF-brother she knew nothing about recently got in touch with my wife. 
Now they talk for five or six hours a day, saying they love each other, while I’m the bad guy. 
I am 44, my wife is 39 and this half-brother is 37.
He tells us how this happened...
Her dad had an affair and this guy is the result. 
My wife’s mum was furious and banned her husband from mentioning his son. 
He paid maintenance but never saw the boy and never told my wife.
And that's one of many ways this happens.

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Thursday, July 16, 2020

Myth: I Don’t Know Anyone Who Has Experienced GSA

Reality: You might not know of them experiencing Genetic Sexual Attraction, but chances are, there is someone in your life who has experienced GSA.

Think it through. Someone experiences reunion GSA in up to 50% of all introductions/reunions of close genetic relatives who were not raised together or by one another, provided the genders and sexual orientations are compatible. Think of all of the people in your extended family and circle of friends, your classmates, coworkers, neighbors, fellow members of clubs or religious congregations, and the people who regularly provide you with a service or are a regular customer of yours. You might not know it in every case, especially since people might want to keep these things private, but a few of them are adopted or gave a child up for adoption, a few were conceived by sperm or egg donation or provided sperm or egg donations, a few were separated from a parent (and often half siblings) due to divorce or breakup or the relationship being a fling, one night stand, or affair. So some of them have had a genetic parent, child, sibling, aunt, uncle, nephew, or niece from whom they were separated enough that if, and when, they were introduced or reunited post-puberty, someone experienced GSA.

Just because one person experiences GSA doesn’t mean it is reciprocal. Even if reciprocated, it might not lead to consanguinamory. Even if it leads to consanguinamory, you might not find out about it.

There are certainly famous people you know of, perhaps even admire, who have experienced GSA.

The mobility of human beings has increased dramatically with transportation innovations, systems, and affordability. Gamete and embryo donations have become an increasingly common reality. Those things have meant more people maturing separated from close genetic relatives. Social networking is bringing people together, as is the same increased mobility that had them apart. These things mean more people experiencing GSA.

Since GSA almost always involves some pain (even if only due to external prejudice), people who experience it need compassion, not condemnation.

If you know or think it is possible that someone specific in your life has dealt with GSA, this might be of some help.

Even if you don't personally know anyone who has experienced GSA, shouldn't all adults have their rights when it comes to their relationships?

See Myth: People in GSA Relationships Don’t Need the Freedom to Marry

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Tuesday, July 14, 2020

Frequently Asked Question: Is This Incest?

One frequently asked question is whether dating this person would be incest, or if doing this activity with a close relative is incest. The question is posed in different ways…

Is this incest?
Is it incest to date my in-law?
Is it incest to date my adopted sister?
Is it incest to date my adopted brother?
Is it incest to date my stepbrother?
Is it incest to date my stepsister?
Is it incest to date my uncle?
Is it incest to date my aunt?
Is it incest to date my cousin?
Is it incest to kiss my brother?
Is it incest to kiss my sister?
It it incest if my sibling and I have masturbated in front of each other?

The subtext is usually, “Is it wrong?

First of all, regardless of laws, I see nothing wrong with any kind of physical affection, contact, or companionship between any consenting adults or minors who are close in age, as long as existing vows to others are not being violated. This includes dating, literally sleeping together, seeing each other nude, hand-holding, hugging, kissing (of any sort,) contact with genitals, intercourse, living together, marrying, etc. If these people are right for each other and want this with each other, then it shouldn’t be anyone else’s place to object.

As I always point out, I’m writing about consensual experimentation, exploration, affection, making out, sex, love, dating, partnering, living together, and marriage. I’m not talking about assault, molestation, abuse, or coercion. If someone forces themselves on you, that is wrong regardless of their relation to you.

What is incest? That depends on who you ask. The definition I once found at Wikipedia was

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Friday, July 10, 2020

Intergenerational Relationships Can Work

Are you in or considering an intergenerational relationship? Are you against such relationships?

By “intergenerational,” I’m talking about ADULT generations. I’m talking about CONSENTING ADULTS. I just wanted to get that out of the way. I’m not talking about adults preying on minors, pedophilia, etc.

The Bad

Although not illegal, nonconsanguineous relationships between adults with a sizable age difference do face prejudice and discrimination. Stereotypical assumptions, expressed as though they are automatically negative, are made about both the younger and older people involved in such relationships.

The older person, depending on age/gender, is often said to be:

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Wednesday, July 8, 2020

Why Does the Government Issue Marriage Licenses?

It's a good question. Someone asked it at this blog's sister Tumblr. It turns out government marriage licenses are a relatively recent invention and are only common in certain parts of the world. Click through for the answer.

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Tuesday, July 7, 2020

Coping With Being Outed as Consanguinamorous

If you are consanguinamorous or have experience with consanguinamory, hopefully, you'll never be outed against your will. It's a cruel thing to out someone unless they're hypocritically using their power to persecute other consanguinamorous people. Fortunately, most people in consanguinamorous relationships are never outed to anyone hostile, at least not anyone with any power over them. Still, it happens to a few people.

In some places, consanguinamory is still criminalized. There are not yet any protections against discrimination (such as in employment or housing), and some people have an irrational hatred against consanguinamorists, to the point of being violent and even murderous against consangs.

So being outed against your will can be a very big deal.

It's best not to be outed against your consent in the first place, so see here and here and here, and discuss with your consanguinamory partner(s) what you'd do if you were outed. In some situations, you might want to Press the Red Button.

One of the significant problems with ignorance around consanguinamory is the false "guilt by association" in which loving relationships are equated with assault and child abuse. It is so irrational that if, for example, two middle-aged siblings are together, some bigots will accuse of them of abusing children. It is senseless, but it happens.


The bottom line in some cases, you might need to:
Deny/remain silent.

Remove your online/social media presence (other than burner accounts) or set everything to private. Don't allow tagging, location info, and block as much as needed.

Change your name.

Relocate to where people don't know you; let as few people know where you've gone as possible.



Let's consider what might happen.

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Thursday, July 2, 2020

A Great Start To His Love Life

Consanguinamorous relationships can start at any age; some very late in life. But many between cousins and siblings start in their teens. Some are very short, some last a lifetime, and some are somewhere between, or are on-and-off again.

As this interview is being published, there are many people spending more time home with family members. Perhaps some of them will find this interview an inspiration? Or they can see this for some possibilities.

People in consanguinamorous relationships are everywhere, though consanguinamorists tend to be closeted. Fortunately, some are willing to be interviewed for this blog. As a result, Full Marriage Equality has featured scores of exclusive interviews with lovers denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The man interviewed below should've be free to legallmarry his partner, or simply to live together as lovers without having to hide, yet they couldn't. They weren't hurting anyone; why were they denied their rights? In much of the world, including where they lived, they could be criminally prosecuted for their love.

Read the interview below and see for yourself what this man has to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it ideal, but whatever your reaction,why should lovers like be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights simply because they love each other this way?

NOTE: This interview contains brief talk about teen sex.


*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe yourselves.

Carlos: I am a Caucasian male living in Mexico City, I am single, about to be 40 years old, and I currently work as a civil engineer in a construction enterprise. Our parents worked very hard to give us a good education and opportunities, so you can say that we came from an upper middle class family. I like sports and video games and I have only one sibling; my sister Sara.

I consider myself to be average looking, about 1.77 meters tall, or 5-feet 9-inches, and a bit over my ideal weight.

Sara is one of those girls who developed early; all through her teens she looked older. So, she always was popular in school, unlike me. Now she is a beautiful woman, slim and the same height as me.

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