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Saturday, January 30, 2021

Discovering Consanguinamory in the Family Tree

I am [or, had been] active on [a certain Big Online Portal's question and answer service], especially when it comes to explaining the importance of relationship rights, full marriage equality, and decriminalizing consanguinamory. Someone had this question...

Family Tree Concerns..?
My Grandfather recently passed away and my Grandmother told us all that her and my Grandfather were never married, they had always celebrated an anniversary (or so we thought,) but didn't understand while she waited till he died before telling us. After further research into my family tree I have discovered that my Grandmother married her Uncle (is this incest!?!), my Mother feels all weird because it feels like her life has been a lie and the only person she could have asked and got a proper answer was her Dad but now he's gone so we are both just looking for some advice or if anyone has been or is going through a similar situation...
This was my answer, which was chosen as the best answer (thankyouverymuch)...
= = = =
Here's what matters: Was your grandfather a good person? A good spouse to your Grandmother? A good parent? A good grandparent? THAT is what matters, not any genetic or legal relation to your grandmother. There's no lie about any of that. Your mother's life is no different now than it was before she knew that information. She's just allowing cultural prejudices to influence her reaction. Your grandparents had what is called a common-law marriage. As long as they were good to each other, that is what matters.

You didn't make it clear, but it appears you mean your grandfather was the brother of one of your grandmother's parents (he would still be an "uncle" to her if he had, at one time, been married to one of your grandmother's parents' sisters without any biological relation to your grandmother). Assuming there was a genetic connection (though it is possible he had been adopted into the family, too), that is still no reason for alarm. This is much more common than people think. People are finding out about this through DNA testing and family records, although family records don't always reveal the truth. If you go back further, it is virtually guaranteed you'll find you have consanguineous ancestors.

You don't have to go too far back in anyone's family tree to find these kinds of things. I doubt there is a person out there whose ancestry has nothing like this.

In other words.... you and your family are as normal as everyone else.
= = =

Just about everyone has incestuous childbearing in their family tree. In some cases, someone was raped, which of course is a horrible, or there was cheating. In other cases, it was true love between people who were not cheating on anyone. If the law prevented them from legally marrying or from telling the truth, that is a problem, a terrible problem, of the law, and just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality. It is not something wrong with the lovers.
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Wednesday, January 27, 2021

You Can Have Both

Today's Dear Abby is disappointing. COMPLICATED IN TENNESSEE wrote...

I have a male best friend I adore...We are not dating; we just have sex sometimes, and everyone that I try to be with knows about him.

It's good that she's honest.

Must I give up on my bestie to be with the man I love even though Bestie and I promised each other that we will never break our bond for anyone?

Something is missing. Is there an actual man she loves right now who has demanded she give up Bestie? Did that man know the truth about Bestie from the start?

Dear Abby replied...

If you hadn't been having sex sometimes with your bestie, the "man you love" might have been able to accept him. The answer to your question is yes, you will have to make a choice. Now, the question I have for you is, which man do you think is the keeper?

Sigh. 

Abby is aware of polyamory, open relationships, and other forms of ethical (or disclosed or consensual) nonmonogamy. There are men for whom the fact that Bestie exists would be something that that makes this letter writer more desirable, and other men who would accept her relationship with Bestie. And yes, there are men who won't want to be with her, but those aren't the only men out there.

It's something that has to be worked out with any person she is with. Aside from the sex, some people want their partner to be their best friend, and don't want to be in a relationship in which their partner's best friend is another person (sometimes, depending on gender).

Monogamy shouldn't be considered the default. Nobody should assume monogamy when dating someone. People need to actually talk about and negotiate the rules of their relationship. If they want or need monogamy, they need to be clear about that and define what monogamy means. For some, it means the partners will not touch (literally!) another adult. For others, monogamy means that they will be spouses and nobody else will have the status of a spouse, but things like casual sex with others is fine.
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Tuesday, January 26, 2021

Dan Savage Answered Another GSA Question

Every once in a while I notice when Dan Savage answers a question about consanguineous sex, whether initiated by Genetic Sexual Attraction or not. Here's one from last month

Q: I have a question about adult incest, also called genetic sexual attraction in the adoption community (GSA). I slept with my biological father 30 years ago. We met when I was an adult after I had been raised by my adoptive parents. Now it’s so awkward to act like I’m a sister to the other children he raised. Should I ever tell them that our dad is my ex-boyfriend?

A: No — if there’s no chance your siblings will ever find out, take that I-fucked-our-father shit to the grave.

For her to tell her genetic siblings would be outing herself. In some circumstances, coming out can be liberating and empowering. For the consanguinamorous, it can be very risky. Consanguinamory is still criminalized in a lot of places, although there might be a limitation that means nothing that happened 30 years ago can be prosecuted now. Legal issues aside, there's a still much prejudice.

The woman asking this question needs to consider: What would be the benefit of outing herself? She might think it would explain how she interacts with her genetic (half?) siblings, but if she wasn't raised with them, might feel awkward trying to have a sibling relationship with them even if she'd never had sex with their shared genetic father.

So, my advice would be to set aside what happened 30 years ago and ask, "Are these good people? Is interacting with them more positive than negative? Do we have things in common?" If the answers to those questions are all "Yes," then accept that there is awkwardness (which the others might not feel at all), and get on with it. But if any of the answers are "No," the woman asking the question is not obligated to keep interacting, or interacting as much as she had been. They are genetically related, but that doesn't obligate they "act like siblings" or be friends.

Genetic Sexual Attraction is far more common than people think, common enough that people should be informed about it and assume that is has been experienced in cases like this and has been acted upon. And that doesn't necessarily warrant any judgment or action. So what if people enjoyed sex with each other in the past? How is that anyone else's business? If you're curious, and you want to ask questions and the person who experienced it is willing to answer them, that's one thing. But leave the bigotry aside.

Does this raise questions for you? Anything you want to share? You can comment below or you can reach out to Keith.
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Monday, January 25, 2021

NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #19


“There are so many people outside of your family. Go marry/have sex with one of them, instead. It creates friendships between families.” There are plenty of people within one’s own race, too, but that is no reason to ban interracial marriage. I have many friends outside of my family to whom I’m neither married nor married to a relative of theirs. On the other hand, don't we all know unrelated married couples who actually drive their relatives apart from each other? Let adults marry the consenting adult(s) of her or his choice.

Telling someone who is happy with their lover that they should dump that person (or even be prosecuted for being with that person) and should be denied their right to marry because there is someone else they can be with instead is an arrogant and usually, very much a cruel intrusion into someone else's life. How would the person who says this like it if someone told them they had to drop their lover (if they have one) and go find someone else, even though they are consenting adults who want to be together and are happy together?

There are people in consanguinamorous relationships who could never find as much love and happiness with someone else, and trying to force them to do so isn't fair to anyone, including the person for whom they "settle." There are people who are consanguinamorous in their orientation.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #18

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #20
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Thursday, January 21, 2021

Why Do I Have Sexual Feelings For My Dad?

I'm active on Quora, and this question came up...


It's a question that might be asked at later ages, too. 

Here's an answer...

Most 16-year-olds are very hormonal. For some, this means they’ll have sexual feelings for a lot of people in their lives. What most people don’t admit is that this can include close relatives, including a parent.

There is also a small percentage of the population that has a sexual orientation that is somewhat consanguinamorous, meaning they are attracted to one or more close relatives in large part because they are close relatives.

If your father has raised you, and he’s been a great father, that can also factor into your attraction.

If your father didn’t raise you, but he’s back in your life now, well, a lot of people feel Genetic Attraction or Genetic Sexual Attraction, a very strong attraction to a close genetic relative if that relative didn’t raise them, but they are in each other’s lives now.

Finally, if your father is “objectively” attractive, that might be most or part of the reason why.

Sexual attractions are very diverse, and they don't always "make sense." 

You are certainly not alone. You probably know other people who’ve been attracted to their own father, whether it was fleeting or they have a strong lasting attraction, or something somewhere between.
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Wednesday, January 20, 2021

Living Consanguinamorously - Keeping the Closet Door Closed


Someone came to this blog by searching...
How my aunt and I can hide our incestuous relationship
The answer below will apply to consanguinamorous relationships of any composition, not just aunts and nephews or aunts and nieces.

Unfortunately, people have been compelled to stay closeted due to prejudice and bigotry, sometimes enshrined in law. Whether someone has had to hide or downplay their gender identity, their sexual orientation or their "forbidden" relationship, the oppression is harmful in many ways, but some people just can't come out of the closet, at least not at a specific time in their life. In some places, it is literally a matter of life and death. Even for places where consanguinamory isn't criminalized, many people in these relationships have good reasons to hide them from at least some of the people around them. As a result, many people don't realize they know people who are in consanguinamorous relationships.

In a perfect world, people would be able to simply love other adults without such problems, but we're not there yet. Civil rights, including things like full marriage equality, are generally advancing, at least on most of the planet, but there is still a ways to go.

Much of the answer raised by the question in the search was answered in an earlier entry about how consanguineous lovers can live together, so check that out.

There's also this entry on how consanguineous lovers can avoid trouble.

I'll try to avoid repeating too much of what is in those entries.
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Monday, January 18, 2021

NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #18


“There is a power differential.” Power differentials in consanguineous sexual relationships do not provide a good reason to deny the rights of lovers to be in these relationships and to marry, if that is what they want. The power differential allegation applies least of all to siblings or cousins who are close in age, but even where the power differential exists, it is not a justification for denying this freedom to marry.

There is a power differential in just about any relationship, sometimes an enormous power differential. One person is more emotionally needy than another. One earns more than the other. One is more educated than another. One has more friends and family than another. One has more life experience than another. On and on it goes. A 21-year-old woman can consent to group sex with three 40-year-old cage fighters she just met, or sex with an older man who boarded in her family home for most of her life, or the President, or a married billionaire sultan, but not her half-brother or her genetic father who she first met a year ago and has been falling in love with? To question if consent is truly possible in consanguineous relationships is insulting and demeaning. If someone her age can consent to join the military, operate heavy machinery, or be sentenced to life in prison or even to death for their actions, how can we say she can't consent to love another adult the way she wants?

There are sober, functional, healthy adults who consent to consanguineous sex with an older relative, and many of them want to marry. It shouldn’t be illegal or questioned, unless you would do the same to any intergenerational relationship between adults.

There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #17

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #19
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Sunday, January 17, 2021

Martin Luther King, Jr.

In the US, Monday is a holiday, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. He was a giant in the fight for civil rights.



Many decades after he was assassinated, the fight for civil rights continues.

History is on our side. All consenting adults will be free to exercise their rights to share love, sex, residence, and marriage.

Are you like those who kept trying to keep some people second-class citizens, or are you like the people who marched with King?

This is how you can help.
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Friday, January 15, 2021

You Are Not Alone

Do any of these statements describe you or someone you love?
  • I am afraid of people becoming aware of my gender, sexual orientation, attractions, relationship(s), or sexual experiences.
  • I am attracted to someone, a few, some, or only people of my gender.
  • I am in or want a same-gender relationship or marriage.
  • I am gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, queer, questioning, curious, or heteroflexible.
  • I feel like a different gender than what I appear to be to most people.
  • I am transgender, intersex, or androgynous. genderfluid, genderqueer, gender nonconforming, or non binary;
  • I don’t fit into a “traditional” gender role or the role other people think I should have.
  • I do not want to ever get married.
  • I do not want close relationships, only casual ones.
  • I enjoy casual sex at least on occasion.
  • I/we enjoy swinging.
  • I/we enjoy swapping.
  • I/we enjoy threesomes.
  • I/we enjoy group sex.
  • I/we are polygamous or want a polygamous marriage.
  • I am polyamorous.
  • I am in or want a polyamorous relationship.
  • I am seeing a polyamorous person.
  • I/we have or want an open relationship/marriage.
  • I am attracted to or want to have sex with a family member or close relative (an in-law, step-relation, adopted relation, half-blood relative, full-blood relative, cousin).
  • I am in a sexual relationship with or want a sexual relationship with a family member or close relative.
  • I want to marry a family member or close relative, or have our existing marriage legally recognized.
  • I have experienced Genetic Sexual Attraction or a strong attraction to a close genetic relative I was not raised with or I didn’t raise or who didn’t raise me.
  • I am in or want a consensual incestuous relationship with another adult.
If so, this blog exists for you. This blog exists to promote rights for all regardless of their gender, orientation, sexual, or relationship diversities.

You need to know:
  • You are not alone.
  • Your feelings, your experiences, and what you want are not necessarily wrong or impossible.
  • You have a future. It gets better. You can have a great life!
  • Change is happening, and you can help it happen faster.
It is especially important that you know that you are not alone. There are others who are going through the same thing. You may not see yourself represented in media, laws might not accommodate you or might even be outright discriminatory towards you. BUT.... YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

Reach out to Keith if you want someone you can communicate with, who understands and affirms who you are.

For more, see this page.



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Tuesday, January 12, 2021

Talk It Over and Discuss the Possibilities

People come to this blog because they are having feelings or experiences that are often met with prejudice elsewhere, or they know someone who is having such feelings or experiences. If you're not sure your partner(s) would accept your feelings or fantasies, the information below might help. Maybe you can show this to them and see if they'll agree to discussions.

Clinical psychologist David J. Ley, Ph.D. wrote something very helpful at psychologytoday.com titled "3 Ways to Meet Your Partner’s Sexual Ideals and Why You Should"...

Viewing your partner’s sexual ideals and needs as important and valuable protects and enhances your relationship. Even if you can’t meet your partners’ sexual ideals, sexual communion mitigates the degree to which that mismatch negatively impacts your relationship.

Ley goes on to describe how to start to use this. Although Ley is writing about partners, this also might be helpful for people who are not yet partners, such as if there is someone who is n your life as a family member or friend but you want to add a sexual bond to your relationship.

Nonjudgmental Listening. The best, first, and most important way that partners can express sexual communion with each other is by communicating about their sexual likes and dislikes, in a manner that involves respect and acceptance. Acknowledging and valuing your partners’ sexual preferences is a critical and meaningful way to let them feel valued and accepted as a person, within your relationship. Have a conversation (actually, it’s best to have lots of little conversations as opposed to just one big one) with your partner about their sexual needs and experiences. Try to make them feel like you are interested and curious about their sexuality. Believe it or not, this is as valuable in long-term relationships with decades of history as it is in fresher relationships. Most people never tell anyone, even their life partners, about their sexual fantasies and interests, for fear of rejection and judgment.

Emphasis mine. Listening is so important. Getting your partner(s) to open up and share with you is the way to grow and deepen the relationship.

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Monday, January 11, 2021

Aunts and Nephews

More days than not, someone finds this blog by doing a search on something like...

incest, aunt nephew, how common
or
Is it incest to have sex with your aunt
or
Do aunts and nephews have sex
or
I’m in love with my aunt
or
Can an aunt marry her nephew

You get the idea. People are searching for information on aunts and nephews having a romantic or erotic connection or marrying. At least some of them are very likely to be aunts who are having sex or want to have sex with a nephew and vice-versa. It is a not-so-distant runner-up to searches about siblings having sex or marrying. Keep in mind that much of this entry also applies to aunts and nieces, and to uncles and nieces and uncles and nephews. [UPDATE: A nephew responded to this entry by asking if he and his aunt could still get in trouble.]

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Saturday, January 9, 2021

When Middle-Aged Siblings Get Together

[Bumping this up]

Some people find this blog from doing a search. Today's interesting search phrase is...
Causes of middle age sibling incest
I'm assuming this is about sex, which is consensual, rather than assault.

I've largely explained the "causes" in this posting, which was about a father and adult daughter.

I have no way of knowing if the person doing the search is such a lover, has a partner who is involved, is a family member or friend, or someone else.

What I do know is that sex between siblings is common enough that everyone knows someone who is, or has been involved.

Since the previous posting I linked was about an adult and their parent, I'll add a few comments here specifically dealing with siblings.

For some middle-aged siblings, the origin of their sexual interaction goes back to having sexual contact as teenagers, which could have stopped for many reasons, including someone else intervening and stopping it, fear of persecution, the siblings finding other partners, going their separate ways for education and employment, and other reasons. Others have their first sexual contact with each other as middle-aged adults.

Having sex with each other in middle age, whether it is new or a resuming of past experiences, could be prompted by a variety of factors. Whether bored or dissatisfied in their relationships with others (and looking for a "safe" person to cheat with); looking to traverse what is, for them, new sexual territory whether they are single or in an open relationship; nostalgic for the past; looking for a "safe" partner who loves them after a breakup or divorce; brought into each other's presence and comforting each other after the death of a parent (or sibling or friend); one caring for the other through recovery from an injury or illness; just plain ol' curiosity or horniness combined with availability. Sometimes it is the first time the siblings have really been in each other's lives at all, and they feel a powerful attraction.

What causes these relationships isn't as important as respecting adults and their relationship and sexual rights. If they aren't cheating by sneaking behind a partner's back, violating an existing agreement, then siblings loving each other this way, especially as middle-aged adults, shouldn't be a matter for law enforcement nor finger-waggers. They are people who at least somewhat share a background, and are likely close in age, and the love each other. Be happy for them!

See:

Ten Myths About Sibling Consanguinamory

Interviews with Siblings in Sexual Relationships
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Thursday, January 7, 2021

An Open Letter To Those Bothered By Our Existence

Are you bothered by our presence here? Do you find it disagreeable that this blog advocates for the rights of ALL ADULTS to live out their gender, sexuality, and relationship diversities with mutually CONSENTING ADULTS, or by themselves if they prefer? Are you bothered even though we are clearly NOT talking about abuse of anyone, especially not children, and we have explained that equality for all will actually help decrease abuse?

This blog has many followers. Most of the feedback and reaction we get is very positive and appreciative. There is a need for what we’re doing.

If you are bothered by this blog, which is here to advocate for equality and civil rights for all adults, there are many ways you can choose to react, some good and some terrible:

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Wednesday, January 6, 2021

Consanguinamory Is Not Dysfunction

ALL IN THE FAMILY wrote into Dear Abby to say that when she was first married, her husband's mother and sisters were "hostile" to her, and she didn't know why. (Side note: Don't marry someone if they're close with their family and their family is hostile to you.) She may or may not be accurate about the treatment, given what she writes later. But let's assume she is.

When they started treating our children the same way, my husband finally addressed the issue.

That's good, but he shouldn't have let them do it to her, either.

We moved out of town, and he finally told me that when he was in his teens and early 20s, he had had sex with all of them, which was why they didn't like me.

There is too much information missing from this.

There are two basic possibilities to what happened:

1) When he was 13, his mother, and possibility significantly older sisters, started assaulting him. That's not "having sex." But that's not how the letter reads. 

2) When he was a teen, he and his sisters, who are close in age to him and each other, starting experimenting with sex. After a while, as they got older, they involved their mother. (Yes, this has happened.) Or he was 18 or 19 and started with his mother, and then his sisters.

Those are two different things. If it was the latter, which is far more common than most people admit, I wouldn't be surprised if he was still having sex with them until shortly before the move. It would explain the timing of his disclosure. Or at least until the wedding. Consanguinamorous bonds can be very strong.

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Monday, January 4, 2021

Sorting Out Relation

Sometimes people, especially young people, aren't certain of how to describe their relation to someone else. It doesn't help that legal relation isn't always the same as genetic (blood) relation.  People can legally be siblings, but not be close genetic relatives, for example. Or two people can be genetic siblings but not legal relatives. Relation by blood/genetics is referred to as consanguinity and relation by marriage or law may be referred to as affinity.

Generally, the law recognizes that people are related through birth*, adoption, or marriage (or civil union or domestic partnership.)

I hope this provides clarity to people who are uncertain.

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Sunday, January 3, 2021

NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #17


Consanguineous sex, relationships, or marriage ruins, confuses, or distorts family relationships.” First of all, this does not apply to adoptees who reunite as adults, or people who resulted from gamete or embryo donation. They already have families.

People only say this about sex and marriage. They don’t say it about friendships, working together, or any number of additional relationship dimensions family members might have with each other, or at least this objection is not enshrined in law, as it is with laws that deny marriage equality. It is as if these people think sex and marriage are bad things and about doing bad things to the other person(s). Are those who oppose equality frustrated? Are they doing sex wrong?

Many people have many relationships that have more than one aspect. Some women say their sister is their best friend. Why can’t their sister be a wife, too? When someone gets married, nobody from the government asks if this will ruin their friendship or their business, and it should not ask if it will ruin their fraternity, either.

Some people do also apply this to same-gender relationships. Friendships, these people say, become potential sexual relationships; it confuses relationships because men are supposed to be friends and not lovers, they say. If that is the limitation people want to place on themselves, they can. They should not be able to place such limits on other consenting adults.

When people are functioning socially in their biological roles, sex would create an additional bond. For some who are not functioning socially in those roles (as is often the case with Genetic Sexual Attraction), that bond may not exist in the first place and this is a way to form one. It should be up to them what kind of a relationship they're going to have.

People who are related through birth, adoption, or marriage (stepfamily) may or may not get along. They may be cruel towards each other or they can be best friends. The law can't force adults to love each other, regardless of their relation, and it shouldn't stop them from loving each other however they mutually agree.


There is no good reason to deny an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race or religion, the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Feel free to share, copy and paste, and otherwise distribute. This has been adapted from this page at Full Marriage Equality: http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/discredited-invalid-arguments.html

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Polyamorous) Love #16

Go to NOT a Good Reason to Deny (Consanguineous) Love #18 
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