A Mother and Brother Support Lovers Denied Their Rights

We recently ran this exclusive interview with Joel and Elijah. Below is an interview conducted with their mother and their brother, who provide examples to other parents and siblings of how to be allies to people who still face discrimination for their relationships. Joel and Elijah are gay male polyamorous twins who are in an ongoing relationship.


*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourselves.
 
Anonymous Mother: I’m a very tall 6-foot 3-inch blonde 42-year-old nurse who lives in east Texas, with my brother. I came from a large family with two sisters and three brothers one of my brothers and one sister is adopted.  Currently I have three sons, the two you have talked with and one younger. Currently they live on their own a few hours away. 
 
Anonymous Brother: I am in law enforcement in Texas and I am a straight male. Currently I am not dating anyone.


FME: Tell us about your twins and their relationship.

AM: Well, as infants and toddlers they had real separation anxiety. They would cry if they got moved apart or even if different people picked them up. They were around three before they handle being in different rooms.  Growing up they always slept in the same bed, and they would often wrap their arms and legs around each other.  In school, several teachers would tell me that my boys never play with anybody else, and a few of them told me I should me take them to a child psychologist, or asked about who or where their father was.

Since my parents paid for them to go a small private school, they never did get placed in separate classes since the school was so small. That was good. because they would not have handled that at all. I also think part of the reason for why they were so close was they were bedwetters well into high school and did want anyone at school learning that.

Throughout their childhood, I always told them they did not have to sleep in the same bed or me and my brother would take them to different events or places. About the time they were twelve I just stopped asking since I knew what the answer was.

In high school they did have a bullying problem, mostly because how small they were. At the start of high school they were around 4-foot 8-inches so they had to wear the junior high style uniforms since the school did not make the high school ones in a small enough size. That, and being gay in a Catholic school resulted in them become rather shy at school.

After I found out about their relationship, they started acting happier both at home and school. I remember that they used to hold hands at the dinner table or on the porch. It really helped lower their stress levels after they told me they were in a relationship. I also let them go on dates with each other through high school, simple things like dinner and a movie. On the first one I told them “no kissing on the first date,” we all had a laugh about that. 

AB: Growing up they were always very close to each other and me. As children, I remember them always being very nice to me to the point of almost spoiling me. Right now, they live near me.


FME: How did you discover the full nature of their relationship?

AM: I caught them having sex in their bedroom. I had figured that they were doing more than just experimenting since I had heard then mention that they liked “various oral activities” shall we say.  At first I wrote it off as maybe it just part of a movie line or a joke and I needed to hear the whole line. But after a while I started to put the pieces together. Granted, it is always shocking to catch your kids having sex, but really I only wanted to talk to them to see if this was really consensual, and if this wast just experimenting. Each of them told me that it was not abusive and that they really loved each other more than just brothers. I still had to ground them for breaking the rules since I said told them when they came out “no sex in the house.” 

AB: They told me about their relationship when they were out of high school. I remember they told me about it on the night they wanted to go out and celebrate their anniversary. When they told me, I just hugged them and told them that they could have told me sooner. I did know that they kissed at times when they were in school but I never really thought that they were a couple.


FME: How did you feel about it then?

AM: I was not that shocked, but it’s still a bit shocking any time a parent catches their children having sex. I had told them when they came out “no sex in the house,” so like I said, I did ground them for that. My brother and I did talk about it for a while, and decided that as long it stays healthy it should be fine. We both also told them about the law in Texas at the time, which made what they are doing a felony and that it was very important to keep it a secret. I thought that maybe it would turn out to be just a temporary thing. I did let them continue to share a bed and did not force them apart.

For a few months I worried that maybe I had raised them wrong or something, but then I learned about the Westermarck Effect. That’s when I thought that maybe it runs in family [to not experience the Westermarck Effect] since I, too, have a relationship with a[n adopted] sibling*. Overall, it took about four months to get over the shock and to understand their relationship. 

AB: I was a bit shocked since I knew they were close but I didn’t think they were like that.  They later told me that they always tried to hide it around me since they did not want to get in trouble at home or have our school find out.


FME: How do you feel about it now? How do you feel about them being polyamorous?

AM: After they had been together for three years, I started celebrating their anniversary with them. As for the polyamorous part, they told me that they were searching for a boyfriend, and thought they had broken up when they first said that. They tried to explain what polyamory was and I got it after a while. Really, I just hope they stay happy and never run in to legal trouble over this.

AB: They are happy and I’m happy for them.


FME: So you were aware of their sexual orientation before you confirmed the nature of their relationship?

AM: Yes, they came out to me a few years before that, and I suspected they might be gay even before that.

AB: They told me that they were gay years before I knew about their relationship. I remember they came out to the whole family in the car on the way to dinner.  Not that I was surprised by this either.


FME: What is your advice to family members, especially parents, who think or know someone they love is gay? ...polyamorous? ...involved with a close relative? What can they do to help?

AM: Be understanding, and remember that sometimes the best way to help is to let them be alone.  But most importantly, let them know that you still love them.

AB: Siblings often tell each other things they don’t even tell their parents. I would be very hurt if they thought they could not tell me these things. If your sibling is gay/bi or anything else please remember to accept them for who they are. You can’t replace a brother or sister.


FME: What is your advice to people who are involved with a close relative about coming out to family?

AB: I know some families are more willing to accept homosexuality than incest.  My advice would be make sure everyone know it is not abusive that will help.


FME: Do you see any difficulties caused by prejudice against them? What's your advice for people who would want to force your sons apart?

AM: I do worry at times that someone will tell the police or out them as a couple and ruin what they have. My advice to them is please be careful and that we will always love you.

AB: Go to Full Marriage Equality and The Final Manifesto.


FME: Hey, thanks! What was family life like when you were growing up? What was your childhood like?
AB: I hardly remember life before my mom moved in with my uncle and he was very much like a father to me and my brothers. I do remember being very close to my brothers. I also remember hating people you said “Oh your only half-brothers” when they found out we had different dads.  Really, I think the oddest thing about our relationship is that from around the time I was nine, and they were 13, I was able to pass as their older brother since I was taller than them. We even once did that for a whole week during one vacation, even mom and dad thought it was funny and even joined in. After they came out as gay I was told by them and my mom that I had to keep that secret from my teachers since they could get in trouble. But other that I looked up to them like most little brothers do.


FME: Do you yourself have any experience with family?

AB: I did have summer fling with a cousin but that was really just a short term thing, we only kissed a few times, went to one movie. Other than that, no, but that’s mostly because I’m not a very sexual person. I would be open to the idea if the person was right.

[*Another interview is NOW HERE about Anonymous Mother's relationship with her adopted brother.]


FME: Anything else to add?

AB: I love my older brothers and I can barely begin to think how much stressful high school was for them because of their sexuality and love.

*****


Why should the twins be denied their rights? There’s no good reason.We need to recognize that all adults should be free to be with any and all consenting adults as they mutually consent, and part of doing that is adopting relationship rights for all, including full marriage equality sooner rather than later. People are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely.

You can read other interviews I have done here.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this. 
If you want to be interviewed about your "forbidden" relationship or being a family member or close friend of someone is in such a relationship, connect with me by checking under the "Get Connected" tab there at the top of the page.

If you know someone who is in a relationship like this, please read this.

Thank you to Anonymous Mother and Anonymous Brother for doing this interview, and for being so supportive.

Stop Denying Rights and Get on the Right Side of History

In the US, in addition to federal law, there are fifty states and Washington, D.C. (which is not part of any state) and territories, such as Puerto Rico, and each can have their own laws as long as they don't violate federal law. Even counties and cities can have their own laws as long as they don't violate federal or state law.

In considering making a chart or map to depict freedoms for adult relationships, it quickly becomes apparent how ridiculous things can be in some places when people try to keep consenting adults from having the relationship to which they mutually agree. The Supreme Court has cleared away some of the mess by making it clear that there is a right to a limited monogamous interracial freedom to marry and a limited monogamous same-gender freedom to marry.

Utah is in the process of defending a law that criminalized polyfidelity, while in (most, at least of) the rest of the states, three or more adults can live together have have children, they just can't legally marry even though there is no good reason to deny them their rights.

Then there are states where couples become legally married just by living together long enough, even if they don't want to be legally married. Well, they're considered married as long as they aren't close relatives. We have to wonder what would  happen if three lovers all moved in together simultaneously... would the law recognize two of them as married after the required number of years? Which two?

We have seen a challenge recently to denying the polyamorous or polygamous right to marry.

About half of US states will marry first cousins, while a few of the others criminally prosecute people for having sex with their first cousins. There are no laws against adult siblings having sex in Rhode Island, New Jersey, and Ohio, but getting legally married is banned. And if those siblings were living as spouses for twenty years and moved to another state, they could be criminally prosecuted for having sex.

Remaining laws denying consenting adults their rights to marry or even just be together are unconstitutional, as various Supreme Court decisions indicate. It is just taking time for that to be worked out. We're here to make it happen sooner rather than later. Ideally, the state and federal governments would go ahead with making sure laws are changed to be Constitutional as soon as possible, but the reality is that it will probably take another Court decision or two to bring about full marriage equality. People suffer while waiting. There is no good reason to continue to deny rights.

A Same-Sex Marriage Still Denied

There are scores of ongoing relationships I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The men interviewed below are consenting adults living life together, with successful careers.They should be free to decide for themselves whether or not to legally marry each other. Yet they face discrimination and prejudice for their love, and could even be criminally prosecuted. They aren't hurting anyone; why should they have to hide their love and be denied their rights?

Read the interview below and see for yourself what these men have to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly erotic, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?



*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourselves.

Joel: My name is Joel and I live in Texas. My brother and I work together. Elijah and I are identical twins. We both have pale blonde hair that we keep just past our shoulders.  Both of are only 5 feet 2 inches tall.  We are in our late 20s, although we look much younger than that. In addition to my twin we have one other sibling, a younger brother, although he has a different dad. We never call each other “half-siblings” and personally I hate the term “half-sibling.”

I make enough that I can afford the life I want, and Elijah makes about the same. I don’t have children, I don’t plan on adopting, and I have no desire to have children. In my free time I play board games, and go to nudist resorts.  I am gay and polyamorous, and so is my twin, but right now it is only the two of us in this relationship.

Elijah: I am the older of the two of us; it’s not like a few minutes matter. I look so much like him that most people have a hard telling us apart, which we both still find fun. We recently celebrated our 12th anniversary, for which our mother gave us cruise tickets.

Thanks to Dr. Endrik Wilhelm

Thanks to a Friend of FME for calling my attention to this interview at dw.com with Dr. Endrik Wilhelm, a solicitor for criminal law based in Germany, about legalizing consanguinamory.

There's a very good map at The Final Manifesto's blogspot. Whatever these maps depict, it would be a good idea for anyone concerned to contact attorneys or lawyers or solicitors where they live who specialize in criminal and family law to get clarification about the laws where they live.

Section 173 in the German criminal code says that sexual contact between siblings is illegal. Offenders face years in prison. Where does the problem lie in the current legal situation in Germany?

The criminal offense itself isn't even linked to the evolution of new life, it's limited to vaginal sex - irrespective of whether it's protected, whatever contraception is or isn't being used, whether or not a woman can even bear a child - all of that doesn't matter, vaginal sex between siblings is illegal, full stop.

It's not an offense to have oral or anal sex, and that's where the Federal Constitutional Court's verdict from 2008 really does get ridiculous. Don't you push a loving couple into a desperate situation once you ban them from having sex? The court said that wouldn't be the case because they'd have 'enough other options' for intercourse. This whole discussion is utterly irrational.

A Woman Denied Her Right to Marry the Person She Loves

There are scores of ongoing relationships I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The woman interviewed below is a mature, articulate professional who should be free to decide for herself whether or not to legally marry another consenting adult, and who that person or persons will be. Yet she and her lover face discrimination and prejudice for their love, and must hide the truth from just about everyone in their life. They aren't hurting anyone; why should they have to hide their love and be denied their rights?

Read the interview below and see for yourself what this woman has to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it incredibly erotic, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights?

Assumed names are used to protect consenting adults from bigots.



*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about yourself.
 Katherine: I am a legal secretary. I work at a small criminal defense firm in the midwest United States. I was raised in the southeast United States with one adopted sister and one adopted brother, with whom I grew up. My adopted parents were upper-middle class. We were raised Christian Baptist. My half-brother, Joshua, was raised in foster care in the midwest. We didn't know about each other growing up.


FME: How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship orientation?

My sexual orientation is pansexual, and he is bisexual. We are monogamous.


FME: You currently live with...?

We currently live together.


FME: You are in a romantic/sexual relationship with your genetic half-brother?

Yes.

We Get Letters About Consanguinamory

Anonymous left a comment after "Consensual Incest FAQ": 

When my step-father was diagnosed with cancer my mother and I became very close. It was a very dark, and lonely time for my mother, and we ended up becoming intimate with one another. It started out casually enough, but quickly lead to us becoming lovers. When my step-father lost his battle with cancer we lived together in a monogamous relationship for about five years until some family became suspicious about the nature of our relationship, and we decided to live apart. My mother and I have no regrets about becoming lovers, but as you can well imagine it hasn't been easy since I have younger siblings. We are still together today, and most of my siblings and family live out of state, so although we have decided not to live together for obvious reasons, we frequently alternate staying at each others places during the work week. 

One way consanguinamory is kindled is when someone turns to a trusted person they already love while enduring a difficult time in life. But rather than a desperate, fleeting stop-gap, it turns out to be a great match that lasts. There is no good reason this mother and her adult child should have to hide their relationship.

I will note that this blog does not support cheating. The comment didn't specify what, if any, agreements were in place between this writer's mother and stepfather, so we don't know from the comment alone whether this was cheating or not. In her situation, the mother had these basic options:

1. Stay by her dying husband's side and forgo physical affection.
2. Stay by her dying husband's side and receive physical affection from one or more other people.
3. Leave her dying husband.


These are options many people have had to face when a partner has had a debilitating illness, especially a terminal one. Everything from cancer to dementia can take away physical and emotional intimacy.  Some people would say option 1 was the only right option. But some people are ethically nonmonogamous. It is possible the mother and her husband already had an agreement regarding that, or that they made such an agreement as his health deteriorated. Whatever the case, she went with option 2 and did so very discreetly, not involving someone else in the community along with the gossip that could come with it. She turned to someone she already trusted and loved, and who would love her in return.

Whether there was an agreement in place or not, there is no reason now that these consenting adults shouldn't be free to be together. We have no laws against other people marrying or being together even if their relationship started out as cheating. Cheating is not an ideal way to start a relationship, and again, this blog does not support cheating, but that doesn't mean something that started out in such a way can't become something better.


I know it isn't something a lot of people like to think about, but along with plans for the future in terms of physical care, all of us should discuss with partners, as appropriate, what should happen in terms of sexual and emotional relationships if we are no longer of sound mind or are unable to communicate. There are people with dementia who, while unable to even remember that they're married, are still apparently able to initiate, accept, or decline sexual advances. There are many varying decisions caused by such realities. You can put a spouse in a home due to their need for around-the-clock professional care, and when you visit, you might find that spouse holding hands with another resident. That spouse doesn't remember they're married. Should you object? Should you refrain from having any romantic or sexual relationships with anyone else while your spouse is alive, living in that care facility, knowing they don't even remember who you are and will not regain that knowledge?

This isn't meant to be a downer. I suppose this is another reminder that life is short and if consenting adults have found happiness with each other and want to be together, no stranger sitting in a prosecutor's office or on a bench should try to stop them.

A Polyamorous Mother Denied Her Rights

This is the thirty-eighth ongoing relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The woman the interview below is a responsible adult, someone you might live next to or work with, in consensual relationships with other adults. Yet they face discrimination and prejudice for their love, having to hide the truth. They are clearly intelligent, responsible people and it is cruel to discriminate against them or deny them their rights.

Read the interview below and ask yourself if there is one good reason why people like this person,  should be denied the right to marry all of the consenting adults she love and have their marriages treated equally under the law or should have to hide the full, true nature of their relationship from anyone.


*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Rhian Ruari: I'm a college educated Demisexual bi-romantic white cis-woman in her 30s.  I work in education.  I write, read, bike, cook and watch DVDs with my loved ones, and making things with my kids.  I love being productive, work more than I should, and I love scheduling and organizing, planning and driving.  I live on the west coast in a house with H and W and our children, G and B.

H is a grad-level educated cishet Latino man in his mid 30s.  He's a scientist, who loves to read,  hike, bike and other random outdoors activities. 

W is in his mid-twenties, is a white cis male who is bi-romantic and mostly heterosexual.  He bikes, cooks, gardens, reads, loves the outdoors and likes dating.


FME: Are you legally married or have you ever been legally married?

H and I are legally married,  and have been for about a decade and a half...together for longer.  W has never been legally attached to anyone (although we have power of attorney papers) and M (H's white cishet girlfriend) has also never been married or legally partnered.  W short-hands our relationship as married, though...and we've talked about how nice having some sort of ceremony would be.

Casting Call

Here's another casting call. In communicating with the person who sent me this, it sounds like they are open to any "unconventional" or "forbidden" adult relationships. So, if you're not sure if they'd be interested in you, contact them to find out. This sounds like a friendly production, but as I always say, it is up to you and your loved ones whether or not you want to be involved with media. The decision to be out and so prominent has to be up to you and your partners. Visibility helps, but visibility comes with risks until protections against discrimination are in place.

If you decide to go for it, let us know how it goes (in so far as any confidentiality agreement allows).

Text from the casting call...

We are looking for people in loving and honest relationships that epitomize MODERN LOVE!

At first glance, would some consider your relationship unconventional; but underneath the surface, its undeniable? We are seeking partnerships to highlight in this groundbreaking new television series.

If you and your main squeeze are in an aspirational relationship that defies tradition but works for you, apply now!

Our simple and secure online form can be located here:
http://mactioncasting.formstack.com/forms/truelove
or text “truelove” to (424) 281 - 7073

Even if you just want more information, shoot me a text. There is zero commitment to participate!

MAC Worldwide Inc
7551 Sunset Blvd, #205
Los Angeles, CA 90046

Dear Boies and Olson: Please Keep Working For Equal Rights

The American Foundation for Equal Rights (AFER) has announced they will shut down, just like Freedom to Marry has announced. Have we achieved equal rights for all adults? No. We haven't even achieved full marriage equality. So as we did with Freedom to Marry, we encourage AFER to reconsider and to continue the work that needs to be done, because there is still so much progress to make. David Boies and Ted Olson can make more history.

Dear Evan Wolfson: Please Keep Freedom to Marry Going

Evan Wolfson and everyone at Freedom to Marry have done a lot of good in helping the US progress to getting the nationwide limited same-gender freedom to marry. That we applaud with great enthusiasm and joy. That we don't applaud is plans to shut down the organization. From a report at reason.com by Scott Shackford...

The group, founded in 2003 by civil rights lawyer Evan Wolfson to fight for same-sex marriage recognition, is marking the occasion by having a big party and then doing something unusual in non-profit activist circles: It's going away. The party was last week—Vice President Joe Biden and pop singer Carly Rae Jepsen (remember "Call Me, Maybe"?) joined the celebration. Now, as the Wall Street Journal explains, it's time to shut it all down:

The next morning, Mr. Wolfson said he and his "bleary-eyed" team met to plan the shutdown. Most of the 30 or so on staff will be gone by December, he said, while "a little rump of us" will remain to turn out the lights in February.

For many of the same reasons this blog will continue, Freedom to Marry should also continue. There is still so much progress to be made. Here are just a few reasons why Freedom to Marry can still do a lot of good:

1) There are still adults in the US who do not have the freedom to marry (or even simply be with) the person(s) they love, including many LGBT people. We need full marriage equality.

2) Other countries need help, including from the US, to move towards marriage equality.

3) Marriages will need protection in legislatures, administrations, and courts. Even though a decision by the US Supreme Court should settle the matter in the US, there are still going to be attacks, foot-dragging, noncompliance, and all sorts of ways marriages will be denied equal treatment. Many people can testify that having specific civil rights legislation in place has not ensured everyone has their rights; vigilance is needed.

4) Supreme Court decisions have been reversed before. A 5-4 decision isn't a safe as we'd like to believe. A new President will be elected in 2016. Will the new President make the right appointments to the Court and lower courts?

5) We need a federal Marriage Equality Amendment. Who better to lobby for it?

Let's keep going until every adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion is free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

What do ya say? Let's reward the staff for their success so far by keeping them employed in the work that's still ahead.

Anonymous Comment Claims Polyamorous Consanguinamory

Given that many find the subject matter to be controversial already, we try to keep this blog as Safe For Work as possible. Every once in a while, someone leaves a comment that I can't print exactly as left. Such was the case with Anonymous. I hope this Anonymous contacts me through email for further correspondence. Below, if you dare to read, is a polyamorous consanguinamorous relationship as described by Anonymous, who left the comments after this blog's most popular entry.



***PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS SUBMISSION BY ANONYMOUS HAS A HEAVY EMPHASIS ON SEXUAL INTERACTION***

Dr. Phil is Looking For Suckers

I've only caught a few moments here and there of Dr. Phil's show, so maybe I'm reading this wrong, but here is a casting call for his show...

Are You in a Polygamous Relationship?

Are you currently in a relationship with two or more people? Is one or more of your partners against being a part of a polygamous relationship? Is one or more of your partners ready to end the relationship if you don’t make a choice between them? Are you interested in starting a relationship with a second partner? Is your decision to be in a polygamous relationship ruining your relationship with your children or your family? Do you want to end you relationship with one or more of your partners?

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt the show will respect polymorous or polygamous relationships. The way this is written, it could attract, for example, a FMF triad, at least one member of which is having trouble with her/his parents, and thinking the show might attempt to help them with that. But I picture an episode that is all about trying to tell people involved in ethical nonmonogamy why they are wrong. The producers will probably be looking for polygynous relationships only, and their focus will probably be painting the women as victims of some arrogant or cheating man.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to be in this case.


But let's keep in mind:



1. An episode is only going to have a maximum of 45 minutest of content. That ends up being a very short amount of time, especially if they also have someone on the stage with you who is a vocal opponent of nonmonogamy.

2. Dr. Phil and his staff will edit and control the narrative. If someone thinks they're going to go on there and expose how there are no good arguments for condemning all ethical nonmonogamy, any success is doing so won't make it to air. Do you really think they'll allow Dr. Phil to be portrayed as anything other than wise, correct, and in control?



3. The in-studio audience is likely to be overwhelmingly heterosexual cisgender monogamist women. There's nothing wrong with being a heterosexual cisgender monogamist woman, but the ones in-studio are likely to be hostile towards ethical nonmonogamy (at least by men), and they will not identify sympathetically with any guest on the show who wants nonmonogamy or to be with a polygynous man.

4. The target audience of the show is women who look to Dr. Phil for guidance.

Again, maybe I'm wrong about this. If you watch the show regularly, is there any indication that Dr. Phil would be anything but hostile towards ethical nonmonogamy? I think it would be great if the show had a FFF triad and some of their parents who were having a trough time accepting the relationship. But somehow I doubt that's going to happen.