Granted, Cassavetes would have been done better by not mentioning the same-gender freedom to marry, and rather just stuck with discussing consenting adults in general and their relationship rights, but he should be cut some slack. He's not a rights blogger who has dealt with these issues in precise language every day, and he's an ally for full marriage equality and relationship rights in general. He has pointed out that the emperor has no clothes, and people are having fits.
Let's look at more of the reaction to his comment. Anti-equality Darleen at proteinwisdom.com frets...
The whole of history of humans organizing in groups and moving into civilization is the story of humans overcoming their natures and baser instincts.What is wrong with people being who they are? Are we supposed to avoid doing things we like, just because we like to do them? People who hate others for being who they are and enjoying their lives should be called out. People who want to deny rights to others should be called out. Darleen also tries to link in preying on children to consensual adult sex. Sorry, Darly, two completely different things.
Now we witness a whole political ideology dedicated to tearing that down, to telling people to indulge their nature, to do whatever “feels good,” feel no shame and demonize anyone who should hold a different view.
at newnownext.com reported in an article with a misleading headline of "The Director of ‘The Notebook’ Compares Incest to Gay Marriage"...
We think we know what he was trying to say and that he didn’t mean any harm, but isn’t it the worst when people and critics compare gay marriage to all things deemed unnatural? We understand he’s trying to support his movie and his stance of “love who you want,” but he could’ve chosen another analogy other than gay marriage.
Despite what Cassavetes says, incest is very abusive even when it is at its most benign.Why do people have to trash consanguinamory? Simply point out that most consanguinamory is heterosexual and thus it isn't the same thing as being gay or lesbian. LaVictoire goes on to cite the problems of some of the children of Patrick Stübing and Susan Karolewski, some of the ancient Egyptian royals, and Charles II of Spain, essentially making Discredited Argument #18 . Cassavetes specifically excluded having children. She also invokes Discredited Argument #20. It's fine if she just wants to stay focused on the same-gender freedom to marry for lesbians, but I wish people would refrain from throwing other people under the bus who are also looking for the freedom to marry, or even just be together.
At sheknows.com, Cassavetes' statement is included in a grouping of "stupid" celebrity quotes and possible reasons they were said. The insinuation is that he was looking for publicity.
Laura Donovan at mediaite.com says that he ruined her favorite moving by "saying we should treat incest like gay marriage." No, we should treat all marriages like marriages. That's equality!
I’ve been a staunch fan of touching romance, The Notebook since its 2004 release, so it’s with deep regret that I say the movie has been ruined for me by director Nick Cassavetes, who just said the “love who you want” attitude toward gay marriage should also apply to incest.She then goes on to cite Discredited Arguments #3 and 18.
at pinknews.co.uk wrote...Actually, that’s a bit unfair. He’s not really saying “Gay marriage = Incest,” which would be, like, really bad. It seems like he’s trying to make the point that his film deals with a form of nontraditional love, and he’s using gay marriage as a reference point to get there. He just did it in a totally hamfisted way. What he probably should have said is something like “My film deals with a brother/sister relationship, which is one of our society’s biggest taboos. But if you’re someone who believes that you should be able to love whoever you want as long as you’re not harming anyone, I think it raises some interesting questions. Not that I support incest, or think it has any direct parallels to gay rights, but it is something worth thinking about at least.”
Although he may not have meant to offend the LGBT community, director Nick Cassavetes has done just that after placing incest alongside marriage rights for gay couples.Dr. Keith Ablow asks a bigger question at foxnews.com: "Can sex between brother and sisters ever be normal?" I don't know if normal is the right word, because most involved say it is very special and nothing else compares. He invokes Discredited Argument #19.
They are enacting a drama that is really about having grown up in a household or in households that unleashed inappropriate, toxic sexual impulses—always, in my experience, because one or both of the siblings was exposed to child sexual abuse or was suffering with a severe mental illness.Uh, Dr.? You're dealing with unhappy, traumatized people. Your sample is a wee bit skewed. People who only have positive experiences aren't going to run to you with their time and money and tell you about. But then the doctor starts rambling, throwing in paranoid homeless people. Um, yeah.
Amanda Chatel wrote at thegloss.com "Gay Marriage and Incest are Pretty Much the Same Thing, Right?"
While the point he’s trying to make is clear, he goes about it all wrong. For starters incest is, by most civilized people, considered a vile union between two relatives.Sometimes it is more than two. Consensual sex is not vile.
It’s not only frowned upon, but is illegal in most places. (I could totally make an Appalachia joke here, but I won’t.)Those laws need to change.
If brothers and sisters started f---ing, the human race would be kaput in no time.Hmmm. She seems to write as though the only thing holding her back from jumping her brother's bones and having his babies, and only his babies, is the law.
We get what he's trying to say here, "no judgment," "live and let live," yada yada, but drawing parallels between incest and gay relationships--even if they're loose comparisons that he means to be innocuous--is just a bad idea. |
So, first off, Cassavetes isn't referring to cases of incest where rape is involved or where it destroys a family. He's addressing those cases where a brother and a sister (not a father/daughter) love one another in a sexual manner (i.e. promoting his movie) - so there is no power play - no one is violating anyone. Also, keep in mind that there are GAY brothers who love one another in a sexual manner - and sisters, too (probably). Do I think that Cassavetes actually thought through his comments before saying them? No. Obviously not, or he would have realized that there was a better way to say what he was trying to say - which boils down to "love is for everyone". And yes, incest is not a pleasent topic and not one most people would like to be associated with - we get that, obviously Mr. Cassavetes does not. Condemn the man for faulty reasoning and a poorly constructed argument - but not his intent - which was not to harm. And I would also like to point out that pedophilia and other sexually deviant behaviors did not play a part in Mr. Cassavetes comments (although they did in YOURS). Ummm... one really needs to pick their battles these days. Just a suggestion.
Fay Voshell at americanthinker.com frets...
Cassavetes' film will be hailed as "groundbreaking." It will be followed up by another film featuring the tragic circumstances of two people who didn't know they were brother and sister, similar to the situation Oedipus Rex faced when he unknowingly married his mother and had children by her. The film will show graphically explicit sex scenes between brother and sister, in order that the audiences get used to seeing incestuous relationships as sensually thrilling. The brother and sister will later find out their relationship is forbidden but decide to continue anyway, as they are so in love with one another. The film will end with them staying together for the sake of the children. It will win the coveted Palme d'Or at the Cannes film festival.We can hope.
Monogamous nonconsaguineous same-gender couples who say polyamorous or consanguinamorous people shouldn't have their rights as consenting adults remind of me heterosexual interracial couples and racial minorities who say that LGBT people don't deserve the freedom to marry or other rights. We need to stand up in unison against bigotry, not point to other people and say, "That's gross!"
The basic information of the story was also featured in all of these other places, which is good:
http://lgbtweekly.com/2012/09/11/hollywood-director-places-incest-alongside-gay-marriage/ http://movies.yahoo.com/news/toronto-film-fest-nick-cassevetes-incest-gives-damn-005022619.html
http://theinterrobang.com/2012/09/hollywood-director-says-incest-is-a-ok/http://bossip.com/643605/creepy-hollyweird-director-nick-cassavetes-says-incest-isnt-a-big-deal/
http://www.vh1.com/celebrity/2012-09-10/nick-cassavetes-incest-yellow-celebrity-quotes/
http://www.towleroad.com/2012/09/cassavetes.html
http://gawker.com/5942239/love-who-you-want-director-nick-cassavetes-says-incest-is-super+weird-but-also-fine
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/the-notebook-directors-bizarre-take-on-incest-if-youre-not-having-kids-%E2%80%93-who-gives-a-damn/
http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2012/09/10/top-hollywood-director-believes-incest-is-acceptable/
http://www.newser.com/story/153792/director-on-incest-who-gives-a-damn.html
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/09/10/notebook-director-nick-cassavetes-says-incest-who-gives-damn/
http://www.examiner.com/article/nick-cassavetes-on-incest-love-who-you-want
http://www.gossipcop.com/nick-cassavetes-incest-interview-brother-sister-sex/
![Non-Monogamy Diagram [I:FV]](http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/nonmonogamy2.5.1.gif){kind=link}
Dear Keith...
ReplyDeleteI've read Dr. Ablow's post and even if I found it excessive in tones, I wouldn't underrate what he says about psychopathology.
I've already told you that I'm much less idealist about "consanguineus love".
Wait!
ReplyDeleteI've just learned that he is a very criticized psychiatrist...
Anyway, how many psychiatrists and psychologist would agree with this blog?