Still Fighting Against Bigotry and For Civil Rights

Jacquie Georges writes about “Black LGBT Marriages and Interracial Marriage.” She starts off referencing a September 2010 piece, and explains she had to be more reserved in that piece. She is blunt in this more recent writing, calling on African-Americans to support the same-sex freedom to marry.

Every argument I heard against interracial coupling is similar to the argument against LGBT coupling-the worrying about the children being raised by such coupling, the fact that it’s against “nature” and “God” plans, it will affect society, and the “destruction” of family values (my head is echoing “blah, blah, blah, and blah”). The pagan half of me that was raised as a child (paternal side) told me that LGBT is as natural as being heterosexual. Being raised by my pagan father allowed me to be exposed to gods, goddesses, lwas, and spirits, who are LGBT and had many different marriages and unions that are acceptable.

The arguments against marriage equality haven’t changed much over the years.

As black, heterosexual marriage to “each other” (among black folks) and “outside each other” (among other ethnic groups) became our civil right, so, too, is it with LGBT black folks. As our ancestors did not ask opponents for recognition of their marriage to believe in their way or perception of god or marriage; they simply asked that it be respected. It is the same for LGBT and interracial couples, just respect it –you don’t have to understand it or agree with it.

Allow others to have the marriages that are best for them; the marriages they want. How does it hurt anyone else is two African-American sisters and a Latino man enter a triad marriage?

One minute, the social conservative black community are wagging their finger of DL (gay and lesbians who are “closeted”, down low, and marrying heterosexuals to forge “security” and societal acceptance) for reckless sex practices (since safe sex practices are rarely talked about) that infects many AA, particularly women, with HIV/AIDS and then, the next, they want LGBT to deny who they are and “choose” and/or “practice” a heterosexual “lifestyle.” If that is not disassociation compounded with multiple personality disorder, then I don’t know what is. One minute, they want LGBT to “come out” and the next, they want them to “stay in.” It is likewise with marriage. One minute, they want society to endorse marriage as a “healthy” relationship and children “need” a two-parent home. The next, “Wait, the two-parent home must be the same race/religion/gender/class/creed.” Moreover, there is a list of “what is not.”

Stop oppressing people, forcing them into the closet. Stop denying people who want to get married that legal freedom. You'll see more stability, and more children raised with more loving parents.

Some Young Women Can and Do Consent to Sex

I welcome comments, including ones disagreeing with what I write. But in commenting, someone may expect a response, sometimes in the form of a whole new entry. This is one of those times.

Anonymous left a comment on this entry, which is one about the "Steve Wilkos Show" featuring a father-daughter couple.

As I wrote in that entry…

Britney was 18 when she began having sex with Morgan after being reunited with him. That makes her an adult. She can consent to have an abortion at an age younger than that. She can sign up to serve in our armed forces. Either we take the age of consent laws seriously or we don't. Either we say an adult woman can make her own decisions or we don't. Either we take the freedom of consenting adults seriously or we don't. Which is it going to be?

Macha made a great comment...

I think this is partly rooted in the prejudiced and false belief that women (especially young women) don't want and aren't interested in sex, so if a younger woman is in a sexual relationship with an older man, she must have been coerced, ergo the man is just an abuser. Our society doesn't want women to have the power to consent. We perpetually deny the possibility that women have the ability to make conscious and deliberate choices about their sex lives, infantilizing them from womb to tomb.

Now let’s look at the comment left by Anonymous…

Essentially, you guys are supporting incest with the justification of "love".

We support the rights of an adult to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY consenting adults. Consensual interactions between adults should not need justification. Those who want to restrict such interactions should be the ones explaining why such restrictions are necessary.

Lesbians Have Voices. And Sex.

Stephanie Schroeder asks, "When Will Gay Men Shut Up and Listen?" The explanation:

Writer Stephanie Schroeder says it's time to end the myth that lesbian relationships begin with a U-Haul truck and end in sexlessness.

I don't think it is gay men that perpetuate that myth. I think people of various genders and orientations have kept that myth alive. But then I don't pay as much attention to gay media as the writer.

By the tenor and content of many gay media reports today, it appears as if the conversation in the queer community about sex is only by and about gay men like Dan Savage, and (somehow) by extension, how perhaps straight couples are learning new models of partnership from gay men’s relationships.

In reality, queer women are indeed talking about the same things gay men are talking about vis-à-vis sex and relationships. And it’s more likely that lesbian-feminist thought and action is as much (or more) of a template for “alternative” sexual habits among heterosexuals than gay male sex/relationship rituals ever were.

Uh-oh. Play nice!

When Sapphic-leaning sisters are sitting around talking, rest assured we are often discussing sex and relationships, and likely even lusting after the gal sitting next to us. Lesbians and bisexual women at, for example, the annual Scholar and Feminist Conference at the Barnard Center for Research on Women, or even the annual Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, are continually thinking about, theorizing, and telling the truth about queer female relationships, both in the home and between the sheets. And we are pursuing those relationships—whether casual, committed, or anywhere in between.

Duly noted.

Susie Bright a pioneering sexpert in the queer women’s community, is still writing about sex and monogamy and the falsehoods of relationships for the Huffington Post—and she does so by including sexuality issues relevant to lesbian, bisexual, and transgender individuals, something gay columnists like Savage rarely do.

There’s also lesbian Felice Newman and queer sexpert Tristan Taormino (whose Village Voice column ran for a decade), and bisexual Betty Dodson (who has been peddling her feminist sex education for women for six decades). There are dozens of books published between these three women alone.

And, after “having sex with 3,452 men, 371 women, and 83 1/2 trans people,” Annie Sprinkle came out as eco-sexual, a bent that’s interesting to say the least. Her eco-sexual wedding to another woman, Elizabeth Stephens, and their post-queer “sexecology” philosophy (exploring the places where sexology and ecology overlap) is ripe for broader cultural interpolation and interpretation about women and sexuality.

She has plenty of say. She's tired of marginalization. I definitely support diverse lesbian voices getting a platform. I don't think any prominent gay men need be silenced to do this. The more the merrier, and hopefully, the more freedom to marry, as well!

Equality Just For Some is Not Equality

Kudos to the American Psychological Association for calling for the legalization of (some) same-sex marriages.

This is a freedom to marry: the same-sex freedom to marry.

Dr. Clinton Anderson, APA associate executive director, said that the timing of the resolution is an indirect result of several states' legalization of marriage.

"We knew that marriage benefits heterosexual people in very significant ways, but we didn't know if that would be true for same-sex couples," said Anderson, who is also director of the APA's Office on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Concerns.

Now that six U.S. states permit same-sex marriage, researchers have been able to conduct studies with those couples.

This is widely being called support for full marriage equality, because it supports marriage over civil unions. However, it isn't really full marriage equality as there would still be same-sex couples who could not legally marry; cousins, for one example, or closer same-sex couples brought together through Genetic Sexual Attraction. Also, this still denies poly people the right to marry the persons they love.

Equality just for some is not equality. We need full marriage equality so that an adult can marry any consenting adults.

More Details of Prosecuted Consanguinamorous Relationship

Here's more coverage of the Butler-Yates sentencing for consensual sex.

The headline gets it right: "Man jailed for sex with consenting daughter."

Andrew Butler, 47, was jailed for 10 months and ordered to register as a sex offender for 10 years after reuniting with Nicola Yates, 26, who he had not seen in 20 years.

Sex offender? What danger is he to anyone?

The latest charges come after Yates moved into Butler's home in 2008. She had told her family that she had a new boyfriend but did not reveal his identity.

Her step-sister Natalie went through Yates' mobile phone during a visit to their house and found sexually explicit photos of the couple.

Invasion of privacy, that snoop.

She showed the pictures to Yates' mother who recognised Butler and reported him to police.

Jealousy, much?

Officers arrested the pair in September last year after recovering text messages on a phone at the house which were "evidence of a sexual relationship which had taken place".

They also recovered a laptop with sexually explicit pictures of them both as well as cards and a love letter.

They're in love! So what??? More people should be so lucky.

Judge James Burbidge QC said today: "I accept from everything that I have read about you both that you appear to have a relationship with genuine affection but it was an illicit relationship.

So the judge can see the love, but still enforced the absurd law.

"It is a relationship regarded as abhorrent by society in general for understandable reasons."

Such as...? They never seem to be able to explain that.

He said Butler was a manipulative individual and accepted that Yates was immature and vulnerable.

You know, adult women can't possibly be capable of making decisions about their own bodies and relationships, right?

He added that aggravating features included the harm it had done to the families involved and that they had had a child which was aborted.

What harm? Notice, they don't explain. And isn't abortion legal there?

Some of the comments...

Update on Father-Daughter Couple Prosecuted Second Time

I still can’t believe the authorities are wasting resources punishing consenting adults for loving each other, but here we are. Here’s the latest on the case I already covered with this post.

A 47-year-old man and his 26-year-old daughter have been sentenced for the second time for having sex.

Andrew Butler and Nicola Yates, both from Birmingham, pleaded guilty in July to having sex with a relative between 2008 and 2010.

Butler was sentenced to 10 months and Yates was given a 26-week suspended sentence at Birmingham Crown Court.

The charges shouldn’t have been filed in the first place. Why can consenting adults work out this matter for themselves? Actions like this keep so many consanguinamorous lovers in the closet. Many of them have great relationships, but they rightly fear discimination, bullying, and prosecution.... prosecution... for the "crime" of loving each other. Everyone involved in this prosecution should wake up and smell the coffee (or tea) of the twenty-first century.

If Warren Jeffs is a Rapist, Would it Be Okay If He Had One Wife?

I am strongly in favor of protecting people, especially minors, from predators. But I am weary of every headline about his trial, like this one, referring to Warren Jeffs as a polygamist. The story is about rape allegations, and yet the headline refers to Jeffs being a polygamist.

Have you ever seen these news agencies print a headline like, "Monogamist Rapes 15-Year-Old Neighbor?" Of course not. If Jeffs is a rapist, there is enough to condemn him. There is no need to perpetuate stereotypes about polygamists. Very few polygamists are rapists. Polygamy doesn't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. The only thing all polygamists have in common is being in, or wanting to be in, a marriage or set of marriages that involves more than two people.

UPDATE: According to today's verdict, Jeffs IS a rapist.

On the Down-Low?

julianna wrote at Yahoo Answers about issues she’s having with her boyfriend...

Last night I was having a really emotional conversation with my boyfriend. He admitted to several things including his lying about giving up pot/alcohol even though he led me to believe he'd stopped using. He also told me he'd almost slept with a girl (as in cheating on me) but couldnt go through with it. Very upset, I asked him if there was anything (anything) else that I should know and that I wouldn't be mad whatever it was.

This blog isn’t about pot or alcohol consumption. But let’s say this woman was a vegan and it was really important to her for her partner to be a vegan. (This blog is also not about nutrition or animal rights, but work with me here.) If he admits he’s not vegan, doesn’t it stop right there? And she expects monogamy, and he has a little trouble with that. Why the need for more questioning? Of course I believe in her right to stay in this relationship if she wants to. But I don’t think she should.

At this point he said that what he was going to tell me makes him "crazy" and a "psycho." basically he said he had been attracted to members of his family lately (I assume he means his two sisters or mother but probably sisters) and that when he was drunk awhile ago he called one of his sisters and asked for sex (but they never did anything.) I am okay with this mostly because nothing happened although I do worry that something might happen.

The issue here isn’t his relation to these women. Again, it is that there is an expectation of monogamy and monogamy does not suit him, at least not when he’s drinking, which he does.

The weird thing is, that scenario is strangely hot to me...it's a fantasy of mine--a brother and his sister being together.

It happens. It also isn’t uncommon for someone to find that hot.

I just need to ask the advice of anyone out there on how to talk to him about it and if I'm doing the right thing by staying in a relationship with him. I know it's bad that he lied so I would appreciate it if that wasn't mentioned; I'm mainly wondering about the incest part.

Unfortunately, the question was too vague. What did she mean by “talk to him about it?” Does she want to find out if something went on in the past? Does she want to have some sort of polyamorous relationship where he can be with one of his sisters as long as she (the asker) is involved? Or does she just want to tell him she finds the idea of brother-sister sex arousing?

She later added…

I honestly didn't think it was that bad that he was attracted to them as long as he didn't actually sleep with any of them.

But that doesn’t definitively clarify the matter. Is the problem the cheating?

Alexandria Troy had the best answer, according to the asker…

While biology apparently prevents humans from wanting to mate with the close relatives they live with (a form of reverse sexual imprinting known as the Westermarck effect), there can certainly be exceptions to it.

Mating is one thing. Not all sex is done with the intention of forming a lasting or reproductive relationship.

Regardless, there really isn't a "norm" to fantasies--the way you're thinking is probably not as strange as you may assume. Your boyfriend would make a phenomenal case study. In fact, I personally don't think you should dump him, unless you want to experience being single for a while. If I were you, I would view this as an opportunity to explore human sexuality and the way the mind functions.

If she wants to see such consanguinamory, here’s a chance. But she shouldn’t encourage it if she has conflicting priorities that are more important to her, such as mutual monogamy.

One of the big problems with the continued criminalization of consanguinamory and the judging of consanguinamorous people is that some of them hide or deny their attractions, and then other people get dragged into it who want no part of the situation. It is possible her boyfriend is trying to suppress his attraction to his sister by getting high or drunk. Maybe he really wants to be with her instead. That’s not fair to anyone, especially not the woman asking the question, if she expects to be his primary and only. He could be already on the down-low with his sister, but didn’t tell his girlfriend the whole truth because he wanted to test her reaction.

Getting Philosophical on Incest

At PhilosophyForums.com, I-FLUX asked why (consensual) incest is wrong. It is a great question, and as usual, there isn't really a good answer provided so far that is consistent with how society best functions.  Consanguinamory should not be illegal.

First of all, by our usual way of thinking, we all think Incest is wrong.

That's an incorrect assumption.

The discussion is a bit "taboo" but to actually prove its "badness" is pretty hard in my opinion. I would like a convincing idea to why Incest is wrong.

I've looked hard and haven't found one. What I've found is that there are some powerfully loving and positive, lasting relationships between close relatives who usually have to hide somewhat, and that's terrible.

Incest is not the direct reasons for defects/disorders.

But that's a common Discredited Argument used anyway. It is #18.

Difficult Idealist...

Certainly, there are cultures in the world in incest is not only NOT taboo, but considered necessary to uphold family lineage, especially royal lines.

Tobias...

I find the strongest argument against incest in the muddling of relationships that occur.

That would be Discredited Argument #19.

There is a very strong relationship of power here.

And that is Discredited Argument #20.

Later, Tobias conceded...

To a large extent I think you are right. The feelings of guilt, shame, abuse and so on to a very large extent develop because of society's view of incest. I can very easily conceive of the following societal practice: upon the 18th birthday of a son, the father of the son takes him to his sister who will initiate the boy in the art of sex. Thus initiated the boy is not a virgin anymore and joins manhood. Ok. The aunt has her role, the father does, the son. I don't see such an arrangement as inherently wrong.

To Mega Therion...

It could be unsettling, but romantic relationships are unsettling at times. The question is whether a general ban is just, and I see no reason to suppose it is, apart from what is essentially an aesthetic judgment.

There is no justification for continuing to criminalize love and sex between consenting adults, nor denying this freedom to marry. It is time to change the laws. We need full marriage equality.

Settling Down

A person unfamiliar with polyamory might think it is a “gateway” to swinging. Polymory, especially polyfidelity, is its own thing. In this example, if there was a gateway, it was swinging leading to polyamory. The writer is a male in his late 40s.

My wife and I had been slightly active swingers for a couple of years before the meeting the people we have become deeply involved with. Initially it just started out as another couple to swing with, but the more we saw of each other the greater the attraction became between all parties not always running smoothly admittedly but the relationship just became deeper and deeper. Even to the point where after a recent disaster they spent some time living with us where we all got on great, this then progressed to the point where they moved into a house within walking distance and we would see each other daily and share child care responsibilities. Then recently due to circumstances they have had to move to another city, we are now going to try and form an arrangement where we are all able to live together in the one place and fully commit to a poly lifestyle together.

There are some monogamists who express disgust at this, even though some of those very same monogamists did something very similar to find their spouse; they had a series of sexual relationships until they found someone with whom they clicked to the point of wanting to form a lasting relationship. There are "monogamists" who have had more sexual partners than some polyamorous people or swingers, to be sure. People should have the freedom to do things either of those ways, or still another way. What works for one person doesn’t always work for another. As I've said before, if someone want to be truly monogamous and wait for marriage or marriage-pending to have sex, and they want lifetime monogamy, I wish them a happy marriage and life. Thanfully, there are more and more monogamists who, in turn, wish polyamorists a happy marriage and life.

Terminology and Yahoo Answers

Someone asked, “Incest between consenting siblings who HAVE grown up together? What would this be called?”

I know that Genetic Sexual Attraction is incestuous sexual attraction between people who have NOT grown up together, but meet as adults. But what is it called when they HAVE grown up together?

lynus jary had the best answer, as chosen by the asker (who conceded “Not what I was looking for, but the best answer out of the group of people that answered this.”)…

Giving love thats what its called

Lost Angel felt some need to write…

Sick is what it is

To each his or her own, Lost Angel.

I classify all consensual sex between close relatives as “consanguineous sex” or consanguinamory. It makes sense to distinguish GSA-initiated consanguinamory, but I’m not sure if there is a need or a sensible way to add further classification to consanguinamory that wasn’t GSA-initiated. Cohabitational consanguinamory? But that sounds like they are now living together as a result of being consanguinamorous. Also, some relationships become consanguinamorous after a time of not living in the same home, such as siblings who start up after they've been going to different colleges.

Maybe you have ideas?

As far as Yahoo Answers in general: often relevant questions are removed. When I provide a link, it is to where I found the question; it may not be there anymore. Also, sometimes the deadline to answer isn’t long enough. I would have submitted “consanguinamory” as an answer if I could have.

One Woman's Perspective of Open Marriage

Rachel Rabbit White wrote at TheFrisky.com, "Girl Talk: My Adventures In Open Marriage"

A romantic relationship is made up of commitment, passion and intimacy. Building these things is key. But there is something to gain from “challenging” them too. You could challenge intimacy by spending time apart, challenge passion by removing sex, or challenge commitment by sleeping with other people. For us, challenging one made all three intensify.

We started setting up play-dates but it wasn’t all as smooth as falling into pillows with the honey-blonde. We had a lot of false starts—a few bad dates and no luck with “swinger” or “poly” organizations, which were filled with older couples. We’ve been taking it slow, and after each hot tryst—which seem to happen every few months—we spend time together, renewing emotions and commitment.

Everyone must find their own path, whether that path is taken alone or with one or more others. For some, monogamy will be the way to go. For others, polyfidelity. And for others, an ongoing-open relationship.