So Your Sister's a Unicorn

John Shore gave poly-friendly response to a letter he got. One of the places you can find it is  huffingtonpost.com. Click through his links to his other writings. They are worth a read, especially if you identify as Christian or otherwise deal with people who are anti-equality who do identify as Christian. As I've said before, you can find allies (and people who want equality but are denied) in just about every religion, in Atheist circles... everywhere. And, unfortunately, you can find prejudice just about everywhere, too, although obviously Atheists will not invoke some religion-based dictate in opposition to equality.

From the concerned letter-writer...

Change to Comment Settings and Policy

As always, comments are welcome at this blog, and you can comment anonymously if you'd like, or identify yourself or link (no spam, please) to blog, profile, etc.


Per reader request, I have removed word verification, which some people find annoying.

Since I have removed word verification, I will now need to prevent spam by requiring that comments be approved before they appear. this means your comment may not appear for several hours. Feedback is welcome, including disagreement. I only delete/reject/mark as spam: spam, vulgar or hateful attacks, repeated spouting of bigotry from the same person that does not add to the discussion, and the like. I will not reject comments based on disagreement, but if you don't think consenting adults should be free to love each other, then I do not consent to have you repeatedly spout hate on my blog without adding anything to the discourse.

If you want to write to me privately, then either contact me on Facebook, email me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com, or tell me in your comment that you do NOT want it published.  Otherwise, anything you write here is fair game to be used in a subsequent entry.

I Added a New Page

I've added a new page. You can see the pages as tabs up there at the top of the blog. I decided I needed a "Welcome" page in addition to the "About" blog.

Old Article on Possible GSA Criminal Case

I recently followed a link (can't remember who provided the link... bad blogger, bad blogger) to a news article from way back in the previous millennium (1999) of interest to this blog. It is by Scott Winokur and Tyche Hendricks at sfgate.com and reports from Antioch, California.

An Antioch woman and her 23-year-old son allegedly had an openly sexual relationship that produced a child and another pregnancy and have been charged with incest under a law that could put them in state prison for up to three years.

Three years in prison for having consensual sex with another adult?

Robert Kochly, assistant chief district attorney in Contra Costa County, said Saturday the woman, who is 43, and her son not only haven't denied their alleged relationship, but are defiant about it.

"It is a strange case. This mother and son have taken up as a married couple and she had siblings of his living in the home with her," Kochly said.

The pregnant woman, being held in lieu of $50,000 bail at the West County Justice Center in Richmond, is scheduled to appear in court this week.

Yes, jail a pregnant 43-year-old for the "crime" of having sex. Makes sense, right?

Video: Another Discussion of the Polygamous Freedom to Marry

These guys can't come up with a good reason to deny the polygamous freedom to marry. That's because there isn't one.



More and more people are thinking it through and realizing that full marriage equality makes sense, and that the response to bigots who try to scare people about slippery slopes when it comes to the same-gender freedom to marry should be "What's wrong with letting consenting adults have their right to marry?"

Note that one of them brings up legal sanctions against adultery. I'm not aware of any place in the US where there remain any enforceable criminal laws against adultery, perhaps defined in some ridiculous laws as having sex with someone other than your lawfully wedded spouse (which criminalizes threesomes, polyamory, open marriages, etc.) Nor is adultery considered by the court in divorce proceedings in states that have no-fault divorce. There are some states that still allow people to sue for "alienation of affection," but that is rare. Ultimately, cheating should not be a matter for the courts anyway. But whether or not something is cheating is up to the agreements made by the adults involved. For a strictly monogamous couple, cheating might include one of them sexting someone else. For people in an open marriage, it might be one spouse not informing the other of a sexual encounter had with another person. For a triad in polyfidelity, it might be one of them secretly meeting with a fourth person. None of this should be something for law enforcement to deal with.

Column at Major Newspaper Calls For Polygamous Freedom to Marry

Many thanks to Peg McEntee at sltrib.com for speaking up for the polygamous freedom to marry, which is essential in order to reach full marriage equality.

And, as a strong believer in the right of same-sex couples to marry, it came to me that willing adults who enter into plural marriage should have the same rights.

Having covered polygamy in Utah for more than two decades, I’m acutely aware of the abuse that can and has occurred in polygamous enclaves.

Of course, that abuse is not isolated to polygamous communities, nor is it caused by polygamy. Removing laws and stigmas against consensual adult relationships will make it easier to prosecute abusers, because witnesses and victims will be more willing to work with law enforcement.

My support for gay marriage hinges on these factors: a mature, loving couple should have the same rights and protections as straight couples and to have governments recognize their unions; and that each individual enters into the relationship without financial or ecclesiastical pressure.

Thank you!

Who am I to oppose the choices of two women who join in matrimony, or two or more who choose to enter what now is called a "spiritual" marriage with one man?

This world has seen uncountable changes in customs and mores, and it surely will see more as time goes by. Let adults be adults, committed and accountable.

I have friends who ask if their gay marriage has ever affected my straight one. And I ask them if mine has affected theirs. The answer is always no.

The staff of more news organizations need to speak up in favor of the rights of an adult to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults. Yes, that includes polyamory and polygamy as well as monogamy and other forms.

A Young Adult Love in Hiding

By my count, this is the nineteenth ongoing relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to marry.

"Anonymous" is a young woman who has a consanguinamorous relationship with her brother, who is two years older.

Read this interview and ask yourself if there is one good reason their rights to love each other the way they want should be denied.

*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Anonymous: I'm a female college student living in the southern US. I'm a single college student with one brother, with whom I'm involved. I live with a female roommate.

We Get Letters

Well, comments really. Here are some recent comments of note.

In response to something I posted about half-siblings defying bigotry, Anonymous wrote...

oh my.. i have a enormous amount of sympathy.. i know someone in the same boat, only he's the older and shes younger. Problem is the same. Everyone thinks he's a screw up because he hasn't had a girlfriend for so long and how hes getting older... lol well it would appear that way from the outside. Poor guy has been tormented for years about "he's gonna die a virgin" and "he must be pathetic in bed" etc etc.. nothing could be more incorrect. They've been together for YEARS, and she's told me their life behind closed doors is amazing, and when they are together they are truly an amazing couple. I know because I've seen it. Yet everyone around them are growing up and growing old, are married, some beat each other, some are horrible to their children, some are just outright POS's, while this couple is a beautiful one-yet pretty much illegal everywhere and is extremely taboo in our society. Its horrible that they are ridiculed and made fun of, but sadly at the moment thats how it is. We have to get this straightened out! (lol sheesh and gays thought they had it bad...;D)

Prejudiced discrimination is a problem and is hurtful whether it is directed at an interracial couple, a gay couple, or a polyamorous triad, or a consanguinamorous relationship. Consenting adults shouldn't have to hide their love. The people Anonymous described could involve other people as "beards" (and some people have done that very thing,) but would that be fair to anyone? No, not unless the beards were informed and agreeable, perhaps having some need of theirs met by the arrangement.


Liz continues to be generous with comments and her own experiences. She wrote after a posting about the two main paths to consanguinamory...

I was so relieved that our parents did not try to force my brother and I apart when they learned we were together. He and I have always been close, and after we became intimate I realized that I could not imagine life without him by my side. I cannot imagine what it must be like for those people who want to be in a relationship with a family member but are unable to do so for one reason or another. I strongly agree with what you have said, especially the last paragraph. My wish would be for everyone to be with the one they love, whomever it may be, so they can all have happy lives together.

After an entry talking about children born to such relationships, she wrote...

This does seem to be the number one reason many people are against brother - sister relationships. My brother and I had many discussions and did a lot of research before deciding to have a child together. Once I was pregnant I made sure to see my doctor regularly to make sure everything was ok. Our daughter is fine - happy and healthy. I now know we did the right thing, and we do plan on having more children. My point is that the belief that every incest child will have something wrong with him or her is just wrong, and couples like us should make the decision to have children or not with honest facts, not mistaken beliefs.

We're always happy to get comments like these. People need to see the truth about these relationships. They do exist, and the biggest problem with them is the prejudice of others. There's no reason to criminalize this love or deny these lovers the freedom to marry.

LGBT Plus P?

I'm bumping up this entry because of this article: "Therapists Argue To Replace 'LGBT' With More Inclusive 'GSD'" at queerty.com. GSD means Gender and Sexual Diversities. I like it. I will think about it some more. Reminded me of this...

Over at Freethinking For Dummies is this article about poly being the “new queer.”

Polyamory is much more than having multiple sex partners. Yes, the sex part is important, but not nearly as important as the emotional aspect. To an outsider, polyamory is often seen as an expedient to justifying having multiple sex partners, in the same way they consider bi-sexuality to be. Of course, as those who are bi-sexual can tell you, this isn’t an expedient, it truly a way of being. Being polyamorous is what we feel, it defines how we are attracted romantically, sexually and emotionally to others.

More people should learn that this is so.

I was brought up to believe in traditional gender roles and traditional marriage, but even in my teens and early twenties I felt that there was something wrong with me because I often found that I was in love with more than one woman at the same time. I’m not talking lust here, we all have that, but love. I truly loved two women at the same time. Loved them deeply. It was no more sexual than any other experience of being in love.

I found myself in this situation several times. Before I was married, I resolved this by deciding not to get involved with either woman, because I didn’t feel right choosing one over the other. After I was married, my solution was to ignore what I was feeling for the woman who I wasn’t married to, to the point of breaking off all communication so that I didn’t let my emotions get out of had for fear of breaking my vows or ruining my marriage.

Not having full marriage equality means that some people try to fit into the little box when they aren’t suited to it. And then they can’t do it anymore, coming out as gay or poly or whatever. More people get hurt and often the marriage ends. Wouldn’t it be better to allow people to marry the person or persons they love in the first place?

Even within the community of atheists and freethinkers I’ve been hesitant to come out as ploy for fear of rejection, but I have decided that, as with my atheism, I must be who I am and let people know that. I’ve hidden who I am for far too long and I refuse to do it any longer.

Why is there so much bigotry?

So, you can now add poly to your definition of queer. We are here and we face as much social discrimination as those in the GLBT community, except that we are still where they were 30 years or more ago.

I’m willing to wade in and take on the fight. I’m hoping those of you out there reading this will learn more about polyamory and support us.

I’m right here.

What About the Children?

Abdullah asked a very common question…

How likely is it that brother-sister incest will produce a healthy child?

Taking the question exactly as it is written, a very small percentage of sexual encounters result in a live birth. Only sexual encounters that result in a healthy sperm entering a healthy egg and fertilizing it, followed by successful implantation in the uterus, followed by gestation until viability will produce a healthy child. (This is leaving aside reproductive technologies, donors, and surrogates.)

But I suspect that the question the person was really asking is that if a brother and sister have a pregnancy that comes to term and is successfully delivered, what are the chances of the child being healthy?

Most likely, with any given brother and sister, the child will be healthy. With any birth, there is a chance of the child having a birth defect or genetic problem. All it takes is for a genetic problem of one or both parents being passed along, or a the embryo developing one on her own. If two people have the same genetic problem, as siblings may, there is an increase in the chance that their child will have the same problem in comparison to the general population. However, that increase in chance will still mean that the overall chance is a minority chance.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can also pass along health problems.

We do not deny people their freedom to marry or their sexual or reproductive rights based on their lack of ability to birth healthy children or lack of intention to birth children. We do not make criminals out of them based on those things, either.

There are healthy, intelligent, attractive people whose birth parents are genetic siblings. We all know some, whether we know their biological parentage or not, and whether they know their true biological parentage or not.

Encouraging President Obama and the Supreme Court

According to this Associated Press article by Julie Pace…

The Obama administration is quietly considering urging the Supreme Court to overturn California's ban on gay marriage, a step that would mark a political victory for advocates of same-sex unions and a deepening commitment by President Barack Obama to rights for gay couples.

More and more US states are adopting the limited same-gender freedom to marry. Many others have domestic partnerships or civil unions. In the two neighboring countries, Canada has had the limited same-gender freedom to marry and Mexico is moving towards it nationwide. The US, as a country, is playing catch-up. How embarrassing.

I urge President Obama and the Court to boldly, strongly put the US in a leadership role and support protections based on sexual orientation and relationship rights and full marriage equality for all, rather than a piecemeal approach of this freedom to marry or that form of civil union. Equality just for some, or in some aspects but not others, or in this state but not that state, is not equality. The Constitutional principles of equal protection, freedom of association, freedom of religion, and the right to privacy, along with basic fairness, rational reflection, and compassion, necessitate that the US government ensure the rights of all adults.

Supporting relationship rights, including full marriage equality for all, will eliminate the impractical, unjust, and confusing inequalities in the law pertaining not only to some same-gender relationships, but in all adult relationships, including those that are polyamorous or consanguineous. Some of those inequalities include:

1. Utah’s criminalization of polyamory while other states allow polyamory but do not protect polyamorists and deny the polygamous and polyamorous freedom to marry.


2. Some states allowing first cousins to marry monogamously without restriction, other states allowing them to marry with restrictions, some states banning this freedom to marry, and even a couple of states criminalizing sex between first cousins.

3. Some states allowing any adults who are closer relatives their sexual rights with each other while other states ban those rights.

Nobody should fear being arrested and imprisoned for having a consensual relationship with other adults.

Nobody should be denied the freedom to marry other consenting adults.

There are people who love each other, who have been living as spouses, even have children together, who are denied their rights, who need and want full marriage equality.

Please, Mr. President, urge the Court and the American people to support equal rights for all. Please, to those who serve on the Court: end the discrimination.

An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, harassment, or discrimination.

Let’s get on the right side of history sooner rather than later, and put the hate, bigotry, and bullying behind us. Protect the rights of all adults in all states.

Dear Prudence Prints a GSA Letter

At slate.com, I found another relevant edition of the Dear Prudence column by Emily Yoffe. This one deals with what is likely case of Genetic Sexual Attraction. The title is provocative: “My Wife is My Sister.” The letter-writer wrote…

When my wife and I met in college, the attraction was immediate, and we quickly became inseparable. We had a number of things in common, we came from the same large metropolitan area, and we both wanted to return there after school, so everything was very natural between us.

Sound familiar?

We married soon after graduation, moved back closer to our families, and had three children by the time we were 30.

Notice, no problem is described as far as the children.

We were both born to lesbians, she to a couple, and me to a single woman. She had sought out her biological father as soon as she turned 18, as the sperm bank her parents used allowed contact once the children were 18 if both parties consented. I never was interested in learning about that for myself, but she felt we were cheating our future children by not learning everything we could about my past, too. Well, our anniversary is coming up and I decided to go ahead and, as a present to my wife, see if my biological father was interested in contact as well. He was, and even though our parents had used different sperm banks, it appears so did our father, as he is the same person.

So, they are genetic half siblings. This is going to happen more and more, because they are more attracted to each other than the average other person they may encounter by chance. We know it has happened to others. Cases like this demonstrate that Genetic Sexual Attraction can’t be merely mental or emotional; there is a biological component to it.

On the one hand, I love my wife more than I can say, and logically, done is done, we already have children. I have had a vasectomy, so we won't be having any more, so perhaps there is no harm in continuing as we are. But, I can't help but think "This is my sister" every time I look at her now.

If I was talking directly to this man, I would say she is your wife and the mother your children. You did not know her as your sister. Do not let the thought of her being a genetic half-sister destroy what was apparently a happy marriage and break up a home. There is no rational reason to stop living as they have been. Don’t let prejudice obliterate happiness.

I haven't said anything to her yet, and I don't know if I should or not.

If the information falls into the wrong hands, it could mean that discriminatory law enforcement could invalidate the marriage, and, depending on where they live, they could be prosecuted if they make love again. Ridiculous, yes, but very real possibilities until we have relationship rights and full marriage equality for all adults.

Where do I go from here?

Consult a family law attorney and join the GSA discussion forum here, and the Kindred Spirits forum.

From the response by Yoffe…

I think you have to sit her down and show you what you've discovered. Then you two should likely seek out a counselor who deals with reproductive technology to help you sort through your emotions...Yes, you two will have had a shock, but when it wears off you will be the same people you were before you found out. Shocking news has the effect of making people feels as if the waves it sends out will always rock them. But I think you two should be able to file away your genetic origins and go on.

Kudos to Yoffe for supporting their love.

The laws need to be changed and people need to be educated so that consenting adults, whether brought together through GSA or not, are free to be together and free to marry if they want to marry. In this example, they married and had children and, from the sound of it, are happy together. What’s the problem? Why deny them their rights?