Second Person Found Guilty in Consensual Relationship

More shame on Grant County, Wisconsin, where a case to two adults having consensual sex continues to he prosecuted. See my prior update on this.

A 20-year-old Platteville woman has been found guilty of incest.

Elizabeth Marie Roen was found guilty Wednesday in Grant County Circuit Court of having sexual intercourse with her 25-year-old brother, David Bisbach, at least 10 times in 2009 in the village of Blue River.

Again, why is this a crime?

Roen was sentenced to five years of probation, three months in jail with work release, and she must hold a full-time job or attend school, or make three job applications a week. She was placed on the sex offender registry and is not to have unsupervised visits with her brothers Chris or David.

Outrageous. Everyone involved in the prosecution and conviction should be ashamed of themselves. What consenting adults do in private should be nobody else's business.

Bullying

Bullying has been a hot topic lately, as teens and younger children have been bullied to death, often because of their possible sexual orientation.

It is hard enough for adults to deal with the rejection and persecution of being out of the narrow, close-minded view of sexuality and identity. For children it can be so horrible that they literally can't take it any more, especially when people in their own family reject them because of who they are and the person or persons they love.

To any youth reading this, it does get better and it will get even better than adults have it now. The rights to sex, love, and marriage will be had by all. It is just a matter of time.

Suicide is not the answer. Gaining independence and distance from the bullies will bring a world of change.

Meanwhile, we should all stand up against bullying.

Unjust Antibigamy Law and "Sister Wives"

The TLC show "Sister Wives" continues to make news, in no small part due to a wasteful investigation by law enforcement authorities.

Only two weeks into the network's hit reality series "Sister Wives," the results of a felony bigamy investigation of the show's stars have been presented to the Utah County Attorney, who now must decide whether to file charges against Kody Brown and wives Mari, Janelle, Christine and Robyn.

Why file charges?

Bigamy is a felony in Utah, where the Brown family lives and the show is set, carrying a possible three- to five-year sentence upon conviction.

The law should be changed to that it only applies to nonconsensual bigamy.

To fight back, the Brown family has hired constitutional law scholar Jonathan Turley, a noted critic of anti-polygamy laws. Turley said in an interview Wednesday that he's prepared with a legal defense if charges are filed.

Thank you,  Jonathan Turley, for standing up for the freedom to marry. These laws need to be changed. Until that happens, those persecuted under these unjust laws need to be defended. Nobody should be punished for consensual relationships.

Monday is National Coming Out Day

Monday is National Coming Out Day in the US.

This has traditionally been a day on which LGBT people can feel the most support for coming out to family, friends, classmates, and coworkers. Are you ready to come out?

I also think that if you are polyamorous or consanguineous, there is no better day to come out, if that is what you are prepared to do. In some places, coming out as poly will subject you to the risk of prosecution under antibigamy laws, although in cases like that, it is usually obvious already that you are poly. The law doesn't seem to frown as much on being poly as long as you don't all actually live together, apparently. For consangs, however, there is much more risk in coming out, both socially and legally, as most states still have laws on the books that make it illegal for consenting adults to have with each other simply because they are closely related, or close enough. It is a ridiculous situation, but that's where we are for now.

However, if you are prepared to come out, I don't think there is a better time to find solidarity. And if someone comes out to you, won't you support them and show them solidarity?

Do you have a coming out story you want to share? Leave a comment sharing it.

Lack of Equality Hurts

Polyamory Paradigm wrote about mistakes…

Probably the biggest mistake I've made on my path with polyamory was trying to be monogamously married. I think I did a fair job at it but a lot of the time I felt something in my life was missing. I felt like I was being caged even though I knew I was trying to live up to a commitment I had made. Of course I wouldn't trade my kids for the world so not everything about it was bad. And I also learned that to make myself happy I can't deny who I am. At least at this point in my life I can't imagine being monogamously married again.

Trying to deny your nature, whether it is poly, LGBT, or consanguineous, leads to problems. It is better to discover who you are and be honest with yourself thank to try to confirm to something that is not for you, and dragging other people into a situation that isn’t for you. If it isn't for you, it won't be for them, either, because nobody wants to live with someone who is living a lie. Full marriage equality will discourage that destructive kind of self-denial.

Is Poly the New Gay?

Polymory Paradigm looked at recent events and discussed whether or not poly is the new gay.

Being someone who wasn't (and isn't) strongly involved in the gay rights movement I have a hard time knowing if Polyamory is following the same path or not. What I do know is that most of the poly folk I talk to don't seem to be activists. Some have strong political opinions and will even stand up for their rights when it comes to sexuality, preserving nature, abortion and such but that is no different than monogamous folks.

Right. Poly people are very much like monogamous people, just like gay people are very much like straight people.

But most feel their right to practice polyamory isn't being directly impeded nor do they have any interest in converting other folks.

We should never pressure others into something that’s not for them; we should assist people who are struggling to have the freedom to live in a way that is for them. But make no mistake: polyamorists who are denied the right to marry the persons they love if they so choose are being impeded, just like gay people are in most of the US.

PP also looked at the legal situation in Canada…

Why should you care? Because the case will likely put Canada further down the unexplored road of defining marriage than the U.S. Often Canadian and U.S. law are tied closely, or are even used as precedents.

Not to mention as Section 293 is currently written. . .
-it is possible any conjugal relationship could be punishable under the law.
-the law could be applied to someone dating, and having sex with, multiple partners but not in any formal relationship with any of them. Conjugal is typically understood to mean "sex".
-anyone attending a ritual, ceremony, or handfasting, regardless of legal recognition of the event could be prosecuted under the law.
-anyone who knows of a couple or group existing in a committed, but not legally sanctioned, relationship who doesn't report the relationship to authorities could be charged under the law.
-swinging could be illegal.
-threesomes could be illegal.
-Cheat on your girlfriend, she finds out, she calls the cops. 5 yrs in prison.

By the way, lack of sexual intercourse or abuse don't excuse guilt under the law. Furthermore, how you got into the relationship doesn't matter either.

Let’s hope Canadians gain another freedom to marry and move closer to full marriage equality.

Self-Reporting of Consanguineous Sex

Here is a collection of claimed true accounts (might not be considered safe for work) gathered a while ago of consanguineous sex and relationships, as reported by those involved. It is entitled "The Thoroughly Disreputable Incest Digest." Since they were collected through e-mail, take the claims/confessions with as much salt as you need.

Some of the accounts are disturbing and describe what is clearly child abuse for which someone should rot. I wanted to call attention to the positive, consensual encounters that are in the mix, so I am quoting most of those below.

Considering how the consensual activities described are still illegal in many places, it is understandably difficult for anyone to make a collection in which the participants are identified and the accounts are verified.

I have edited the quotes to clean up typing errors and language.

I was seduced at an early age by an aunt and never regretted it whatsoever. It made me into a great lover of women.

***

I had sex with my cousin when I was 16 and she was 17. Before that we had kissed but that was it. I am now 23, we continue to have sex whenever it is possible. We both feel it has helped our sex lives extremely. We can share with each other fantasies that we are afraid to share with others. I would say that it was and has been the greatest sexual experience of my life. I love my cousin dearly for sharing all our times together.


***


My cousin and I have had sex on and off for the last ten years or so. It is very casual and we both enjoy it. It is very consensual since we were in our early twenty's when it started.


We both see other people and have been married before. She lives in the midwest and I live on the west coast so we don't see each other often enough to get bored with it.


***


Have had such experiences. Cousins, nieces, aunt, half-brother. All enjoyable. I agree this is an under-recognized part of our lives. Would like telling you about these, but do not totally trust this distribution system.


***


Hi, I read your note inquiring about those who have had incest. I am a 22 yr old college student and I have been sexually active with my twin sister since 14, we enjoy our relationship very much and are planning to live together after we both graduate from college this summer. Our dad died from cancer just a few weeks before we graduated from high school and a little over a year later mom joined us kids in our lovemaking and it has been wonderful making her happy. I am going to college close to home and I am home on most weekends. Mom and I spend a lot of time together in bed.


***


My guess is that a lot of siblings experiment sexually. My brother and I did. He was my first, and pretty much my only (at least my only steady sexual partner) in high school. It wasn't until we got back together again as adults, and reacquainted ourselves, sexually I mean, that we began to fall in LOVE. And that, I'm sure you know, is an entirely different thing all together.


***

I saw you post and thought that I would reply. I grew up with only one parent, my mother. After I grew up, I started college and rented a room from her. When I was 23, we started to have sex. It was a mutual thing and we continue to do it even today.


***

A few years ago I was divorced, my parents divorced shortly after and my mother moved in with me. This lasted for over 5 years. Yes I did think about what it would be like for more than a few years before anything happened. I was 35, she was 57 and still very good looking! She did almost everything else, walking around scantily clad, towel from the shower, had me zip up dresses etc. Then it just sort of happened.


Finally she got feeling pretty good at a friends wedding reception that we attended, she was my "date". That night we just fell into bed together, she had begun to undress in front of me. She was very horny and turned out to be a wild woman in bed! I never had any regrets about this!

***


Yes. I f---ed my mother and a female first cousin several times. It was the most thrilling form of sex i ever experienced due to the forbidden nature of it.


I also tried to get my younger sister to try incest with me but she never did, although once she almost did after a few beers. she let me fondle her t--- and a-- through her clothes but when it came down to actually getting naked and f---ing she chickened out.


My experiences with my mother and first cousin though were both consensual and thrilling. I f---ed my mother at the age of 35, she 59 and my cousin when I was 23 and she was 21. So there you have it.

Some of these accounts might be made-up fantasies, of course, but even that shows that some people desire these things. Consider my friends, consider some of my links I have on this blog. People are engaging in this activity or want to. Shouldn't they have their rights as consenting adults like anybody else?

Marsha Marsha Marsha

As you may know, Canada has been considering the poly freedoms. The Toronto Star printed a letter from a Marsha Vandergaast of Newcastle, inspired by recent coverage, including the paper’s coverage of “Sister Wives.”

It is disturbing to see the media's growing acceptance of polygamous marriages.

Polygamous marriages exist. The media has been reflecting that. What is wrong with that?

Although often denied by those within a bigamous marriage, women in these situations are not treated the same as men.

This is a broad brush. There are women who freely choose a polygynous situation.

Our Western culture's emphasis on freedom has made us hesitant to judge any other culture or lifestyle.

Where is the harm is letting people have the freedom to marry?

Yet, by doing so we have allowed groups of people to believe that women are inferior to men.

I support gender equality and marriage equality. They go hand in hand.

It is equally appalling that the police have stated that they avoid prosecuting these types of relationships.

Why should the police get involved when consenting adults choose a life together? We know the letter writer doesn’t want people to have that freedom, but she hasn’t given as a reason why.

Yes, there are dangers out there that may keep police busy, but allowing these lifestyles is teaching our society to accept the subservient role of women.

It seems to me that if you have two or more women and one man, then the women are collectively going to have more power than the man. They may choose not to exercise that power. But I suspect Marsha would still oppose polygamy even if it was two men and two women.

How often do the media show relationships of one woman with three men?

Not often enough. (I think we may have found Marsha's true desire.) But how many of those relationships exist? Marsha may see the women in the news as subservient, but what she sees is a function of cultural elements other than being able to marry more than one person. She has not made a good case for denying this freedom to marry.

Good Ponderings

One of the poly blogs I like to check is Pondering Polyamory. Recently, Felicty wrote about some of the wrong reasons to be poly.

#1 – You are bored with your current partner, or the relationship has passed its expiration date… but you don’t have the balls to break up with (or divorce) him/her.

This is a good point. There is a reason you picked the partner you did. If you made a mistake, or one or both of you has changed, or the relationship has run its course, or you have learned more about yourself or your partner that makes a future impossible, why drag someone else into that situation? You might need to take some time away from having any partner to get yourself into a place where you can be a better partner or find a partner (or partners) more compatible with you.

Go read about the other two wrong reasons Felicity lists. These are in addition to all of the bad reasons to get into any relationship at all.

In another entry, Felicity has advice for anyone who has one partner but wants to go poly:

Word of advice: Be real about who you are and how you want your life to be. Let Existing Partner decide if that version of “you” fits in with their way of being… And let the cards fall where they may.

Polyamory should never, never, ever become an exercise in emotional manipulation and arm-twisting. I’ve seen that implementation of polyamory up close and personal, and it is a terrible thing that brings joy to absolutely no one.

Good advice.

Polyamory Lacking Representation at LGBT Events

Polly, one of our favorite poly bloggers, wrote a few weeks back about her thoughts at an LGBT event.

We did not, however, see any openly polyamorous folks. At least, we didn't see anyone holding hands with more than one person at a time. Gabe wasn't with us, so we were not able to represent, even if we felt like being open in public. There might have been some poly people lurking somewhere being stealthy. We poly people can blend, when we want to. I suspect that our ability to blend is part of what makes people uncomfortable with polyamory. Look out! We're everywhere!! We might be looking at your butt! (For those who actually worry about this sort of thing - being polyamorous does not mean we actually do look at your butt, and it certainly doesn't mean we would care about your butt even if we do look at it.)

We also didn't see any booths promoting or supporting polyamory. That sucked.

It would be nice to see some solidarity. I suspect it was more of a matter of poly people not stepping up. I'm hoping it was that, and not the even organizers keeping them out.

I had to suppress the urge to say, "You know, Stuart snuggles with another guy. He can totally be here. And I've snuggled with women, before, too..." I imagined having a t-shirt with a picture of both of my husbands that says, "I'm with both of them." There are a lot of LGBTQ folks that actually resent or disapprove of polyamory, though - so perhaps the latter wouldn't be so effective.

I really had hoped there would be some support for poly at the pride event. I am not quite up to hosting a booth myself - especially with the ramifications that being an open poly representative could have for my kids. I just wish there were some childless poly people there to lend poly folks a voice, so I could stop by to say thank you and good job.

That's the rub, isn't it? We need more people to come out, but who wants to take the risk? My friends and I can be more open in some places than others with the poly stuff (and Linda and Melissa with the same-sex affection), but not about the consanguineous nature of the relationship.

One theme I've heard from some lesbian and gay folks is, "Hey, we've done the work for gay rights - now you have to do the work for poly rights." Yes, this is true. But honestly, I've helped to do the work for gay rights, too, by being a vocal supporter of LGBTQ folks from the very beginning. Why can't they lend me a hand, now, too?

Very good point. Equality just for some is not equality. Everyone should have the right to sex, love, and marriage regardless of birth or the number of persons.

Be Clear About Polyamory

I’m not sure what to make of this sex column edition on polyamory, written by Chance Petek. It seems cautiously supportive, but it carries a title “There’s No ‘I’ in Threesome.” While some polycules involve strictly, primarily, or occasionally sexual threesomes, not all polycules involve threesomes in the sense most people use the word. Two of the people involved may never have sex with each other, but they both have sex with the third person. Or, they do have sex with each other but not while they are having sex with the third person, with whom they both have sex at different times. And yes, some involve all three having sex together. And this doesn’t even cover situations where there are four our more people involved (like mine), and neither does the term “threesome.”

So then the idea of polyamory to me is impacting as many lives as I can with my own in a positive light. Between a girl and me, energy can turn sexual or it may not. Polyamory is not a sexual idea. It's an overall relationship idea. The more opportunities you give yourself to be happy with someone, the better your success rate will be.

As for multiple partners at the same time, that is a dangerous walk. In our society, someone practicing polyamory is doing it in secret. We call them "cheaters" and there is a sweet show about them and how low-lifey they are.

Cheating is not polyamory. Polyamory is open and consensual.

However, jealousy can easily rear its ugly head.

Polyamory isn’t for everyone. We do not want to deny anyone their right to monogamy, or celibacy for that matter.

Lesbian Compares Her Past Monogamy to Current Poly

Sometimes, you can find some good perspectives at the Experience Project. PeggyO, who is in her late 40s, shared why she is glad she discovered polyamory and why she enjoys it. She’s a lesbian who had experienced long-term monogamy in a marriage relationship before discovering she is poly. I have not removed her typing errors.

Single now for a little over two years - I am suprised and rather shocked at my own desires to seek polyamorous relationships. I have read some books - agree with certain points made. A strong argument is the could you only love one child if you had more than one? no! you would love each one and accept them for who they are. I have always been one - who has had a wide variety of friends - good friends, I value my freindships and actually each one of those is a sort of relationship of thier own. This is especially true in the lesbian world where our friendships bonding can be quite close. So - I make connections and let them unfold as they do at a natural pace, and should it become sexual and the feelings are mutual - I invite that into my life.

She found seeking monogamy to be confining and something that brought her loneliness.

I just seems - when I was living the "monogomous" life - unless for me to cross "that" line and become intimate with another - I had to have all my ducts lined up perfect with THIS person - they must show that they are THE one - the perfect one to allow to bring myself into a "relationship" the thing is - with this thinking - you end up doing a whole lot of eleminating and much more time being lonely- but that "perfect" one could be around the corner.......

As you’ll find with many poly people and anyone else, she points out that it isn’t just about sex.

At the same time - it is not all about just sex with me - it is about knowing that woman and feeling good about expressing some mutual attractions, careing and sharing - even if our "time" together does not last until all enternity.

It is a good relationship for that time. It may not always be. She is selective…

I still look for women of character - when deciding to become intimate - so as to give myself some feeling of grounding and trust building. I am actually rather selective on who I choose to become intimate with. I do however feel very strongly - I would not wish to be required to "drop" one of my other intimate connections - so as to make any new one I make feel "safe and secure"

She gives a good explanation of why polyamory is what she needs…

Mono and Poly, it it like comparing apples to oranges. I loved my apples for a long time - I just now am enjoying oranges. This is even a better comparison. I have this unique opportunity do my having flight benefits - I live in two different areas / states - have for nine years - I live in the beautiful Cascade mountains of the Pacific Northwest for part of the week and then in a beautiful metropolis city during the other part of the week. So - everyone love to ask me - which is better to live? The mountains or the city? they almost insist it has to be either / or. I say Both! each area as their good side to it and also their bad side. I am just lucky that I get an opportunity to experience BOTH - experience and live it - in THIS I find true happiness :)

She should have equal rights, so that she can pursue happiness.