Polyamory on CafeMom.com

Discussions like this one should be a reminder that poly families have the same interests and concerns as other families.

Anryan, under the subject heading “Polyamory,” asked, “Are there any others here?”

MrsMiller340…

I dont wanna sound dumb but what is a polyamory?

That’s not a dumb question. Polyamory still doesn’t get nearly enough coverage and representation in the media.

Lisa0626 came to the rescue…

Web definitions
Polyamory (from Greek πολυ [poly, meaning many or several] and Latin amor [love]) is the practice, desire, or acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

Any of various practices involving relationships with multiple partners with the knowledge and consent of all involved
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/polyamory

Okay, don't laugh, but I have often thought, it would be great to have my hubby at home, another guy to take me out, another one to work with, and another to do really nerdy things! I am also, okay with men feeding me grapes and fanning me! LoL,

But, seriously, I am a one man woman! Always have been. :)

momof3_dll…

Have been involved in this once but things became complicated. You definitely need maturity in this type of relations.

Anryan returned and explained…

Hubby and I have been married for 16 yrs and poly for the last 3yrs. I am 39 and DH is 35. We both have signigicant others (i have another man, he has another woman). I am always looking for like minded, or at least open minded, people to chat with. I can answer any questions you have lol. Nice to meet you all.

We are a polyfidelitous family, meaning we have each have two relationships and are committed to them. In other words we don't go and find any other partners.

So it is a closed polycule.

We do not all sleep together, hubby and I have our own room and our SO's have thier own rooms. I sleep 2 nights with DH and then 2 nights with my SO, when i am with my SO my DH is with his. It is basically3 couples lol...kinda confusing to read. DH and I are legally married, but we are not married in any sense to our SO's.

The way she wrote this, it sounds like the others aren’t together? Sound like the legally married couple is the diagonal in an “N” or a “Z.”

Religion doesn't play into poly for the most part, not like polygamy does. A lot of poly couples are not of typical/traditional religions. We are pagan, but we have poly friends that are jewish, agnostic, and even christian.

We are normal people, with normal values lol. DH and i have 2 kids (17 yrs and 11 yrs). We don't have orgies in the living room lol (i get asked that alot for some reason lol), we have about as much sex as in any normal relationship, we aren't perverts lol.

If there are any other questions, just feel free to ask.

People often mistakenly assume that “polyamorous” = orgies. It isn’t necessarily so. People in some polycules only have one-on-one-at-a-time dating, sex, sleeping arrangements, or whatever.

Are You Cho Dependent?

Claire Sawers interviewed Margaret Cho in promotion of Cho’s August performances in Edinburgh (Assembly George Square.)

As always, Cho had some interesting things to say…

‘I choose to be slutty,’ she declares, as a lap-dog-sounding animal yelps somewhere in the background. ‘When it comes to my sexuality, I’m beyond definition. Being queer is not about being sexy for me, it’s a political thing; it’s about being empowered.’ Cho’s personal life is very simple to her; although she acknowledges some people struggle to get their heads around it. Married to her husband Al Ridenour for almost a decade, Cho supplements this very ‘conventional, primary relationship’ with lots of other same-sex arrangements.

‘Being partnered is very important to me. But, being in a polyamorous relationship is just more honest for me. It’s more respectful to my nature,’ she explains, in the type of San Franciscan drawl than can’t help turning statements into questions. ‘I have poor impulse control!’ she laughs, before returning to a more serious tone. ‘Fidelity: I don’t personally agree with it? And monogamy doesn’t seem purposeful to me? But that doesn’t mean I would recommend my lifestyle to others either.’

Further along…

On being bisexual:
‘I don’t even care who it is anymore, I just want people to like me. I’m not “bi” I’m “I”. I just want people to be into me. I’m not a lesbian either, which is a shame, because I’m so good at softball.’

On Christian groups opposing gay marriage:
‘They have no right to call themselves Christians. They have no kindness to them, no compassion, no charity. I want Jesus to come back and be like: “THAT’S NOT WHAT I MEANT!”’

Thanks, MC!

Cousin Couples and Same-Sex Couples Aren't Enemies

Macha at Life as a Reader, who is an ally for marriage equality, shows integrity by calling out the lack of solidarity/throwing-under-the-bus some people do when doing the otherwise noble thing of arguing for the same-sex freedom to marry. (Full disclosure: the post links back to this blog, but I would have featured it even if it didn’t.)

You don't end the oppression of a minority by joining up with your enemy to further demonize other oppressed groups. You are only perpetuating the pattern of oppression.

Could not have written it any better.

Marriage equality for ALL loving, consenting couples can only be achieved when we stop allowing for stupid arguments that support discrimination. Marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples and for consanguineous couples are both opposed through similar faulty arguments, the one being proposed here: arguments surrounding the relationship between marriage and children.

Macha makes excellent points, then wraps up…

There are so many awesome arguments in favor of marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples. There is simply no reason to stoop to the level of demonizing other loving, consenting couples (including people in polyamorous, consanguineous, or any other atypical relationship), who just want to have their love acknowledged, just like everyone else, in order to make gay and lesbian relationships look less frightening to the wider monogomous- and hetero-normative culture. Especially in this instance, you are only accepting the premise of the prejudicial arguments about marriage's relationship to procreation that work against you anyway. You're only hurting your argument.

Fabulous.

wintersongt states it so well…

The LGBT community will NEVER be able to alienate or demonize enough of its own membership, other sexual minorities, or people in alternative relationship structures to appease the cultural conservative right. Only a clear message of equality for all loving people can hope to cut through the crap and achieve real change.

Grand slam.

The LGBT community will always be asked to jump through hoops to gain acceptance. Drop the Ts. Drop the Bs. Drop all Gs and Ls who don't say, "Yes sir!," sit in the back of the bus, attend an approved church, don't hold hands in public, and otherwise remain quiet... and then MAYBE we will tolerate you. Don't fall for that trap!

When arguing for the same-sex freedom to marry, the correct response to comparisons to consanguinity or polygamy is... "What's wrong with letting an adult share love, life, and marriage with any consenting adults?" Make the bigots defend their prejudice (they can't) rather than throwing other people under the bus!

I can understand why a monogamous gay man who wants to marry one unrelated man doesn't want to be told it is exactly the same thing as wanting to marry his sister or two women. It isn't, in the same way his wanting to marry that man isn't the exact same thing as another white man wanting to marry a black woman. But they ARE all a matter of marriage equality.

I have no interest in anal sex either way with another man, nor marrying another man. But I support those who do. They should not be denied their rights. Likewise, support the rights of others.

So, no, monogamous same-sex nonconsanguineous couples are not polygamists or incestuous. But there ARE some polyamorous same-sex relationships, and there ARE some same-sex relationships that are consanguineous. Gay or not, all adults should have the rights, including the rights to polyamory or consanguinamory.

My friends can't get married with just a limited freedom to marry. They need full marriage equality before they can get married, because a ban on same-sex marriage OR a ban on polygamy OR a ban on consanguinity will nix their wedding.

High Percentage of People Are Interested in Incest

Peter Tupper has a very extensive review of the book A Billion Wicked Thoughts, which presents a survey of sexuality on the Internet. Authors Ogi Ogas and Sai Gaddam have PhDs from Boston University's Department of Cognitive and Neural Systems. Relevant to this blog is that the most popular sexual search categories in one measure were “youth,” “gay,” and “MILF,” in that order, with “incest” also making the top 15.

As I’ve said before about consensual consanguineous sex (incest), there are more consanguinamorous spousal-type relationships in the world than most people think. There are many more close relatives who have had sexual relationships but have not lived as spouses, and still more who have experimented, and many, many more individuals who have thought about it in a positive or arousing way.

The portrayal of consanguineous sex as something rare and subject to universal disgust is a false one. And more and more people who aren’t interested in engaging in consanguinamory themselves or fantasizing about it are deciding, after thinking about it and perhaps researching it, that it isn’t something to ostracize or prosecute people over, or a reason to deny someone the freedom to marry.

Ghana Prosecutes For Consensual Sex

We have another story out of Ghana where law enforcement is interfering with an apparently consensual relationship between adults.

A 60year-old farmer, Kwesi Gyimah, on Wednesday appeared before the Asamankese Circuit Court on the charge of an incestuous relationship with his own daughter.

Not only did Gyimah have sexual relations with his biological daughter, Abena Tawiah, 25, but also put her in a family way which is over 27 weeks old.

That means she’s 27 weeks pregnant.

Gyimah who pleaded guilty with explanation, was remanded in prison custody to reappear on July 27 when his explanation would be heard.

Prison? Why?

Police Inspector Francis Cobbina told the court presided over by Mr D.E.K. Daketsey that the accused stayed in the same house with his daughter at Akim Ayerebi.

He said the complainants, the family members of Abena Tawiah, who lived at Tweapease realised that Abena was pregnant.

Inspector Cobbina said when Abena was questioned as to who was responsible for her pregnancy, she mentioned the name of her father.

So it was jealous family members who rat them out.

Inspector Cobbina said Gyimah admitted that he had sexual intercourse with the daughter on three occasions in February.

Is there really not enough happening for law enforcement to deal with in Ghana? There is no indication given than this was anything but consensual sex, perhaps part of a long-term consanguinamorous relationship. Why is this a crime? If family members are jealous, that is their problem. It shouldn’t be a criminal matter. They should be allowed to marry, if that is what they want.

Ralph Richard Banks Looks at Equality Progress

Ralph Richard Banks, author and professor of law at Stanford Law School, wrote in the New York Times…

Not long ago, the prohibition of same-sex marriage, like the prohibition of interracial marriage before it, was so deeply ingrained in our social fabric and legal understandings that the recent turnabout by the New York State Legislature might have seemed unimaginable.

To many, sure.

As recently as 1986, the United States Supreme Court rejected a gay man’s argument for constitutional protection of his sexual relationship, declaring the argument as “at best, facetious.”

The denial of freedom was atrocious.

In 2001, the court overturned that ruling and accorded same-sex partners the same constitutional protection as heterosexuals. Same-sex marriage may soon become legal in even more states.

It must. We must keep moving towards full marriage equality.

What now of the two remaining criminal prohibitions of intimate relationships: incest and polygamy?

They also belong on the ash heap of history, right next to the ban on same-sex marriage and the ban on interracial marriage.

Even as same sex and interracial relationships are accepted, Americans are now imprisoned for incest or polygamy.

It’s not only a travesty of justice, but a waste of resources.

The cases against polygamy and incest are not nearly as strong as most people imagine.

They are flimsy masks hiding prejudice and bigotry and fear.

Yet they will not become legal anytime soon.

They won’t if we sit on our hands. In modern times, we have never been closer to achieving full marriage equality. But we need to act.

Banks cites the long road that interracial and same-sex (monogamous, nonconsanguineous) marriage have taken to explain why. But there’s more momentum for equality now.

The categorical prohibitions of incest and polygamy persist in part because people who commit either act are commonly reduced to that act (which is viewed as morally reprehensible) and, in turn, are not viewed as worthy of respect as people.

That is changing, and we need to keep changing it.

Historically, both polygamy and incest have been more widely practiced, and accepted, than the Supreme Court, and most Americans, seem to believe.

Over time, our moral assessments of these practices will shift, just as they have with interracial marriage and same sex marriage. We will begin to take seriously questions that now seem beyond the pale: Should a state be permitted to imprison two cousins because they have sex or attempt to marry?

Of course not.

Should a man and two wives be permitted to live together as a family when they assert that their religious convictions lead them to do so?

They should be able to with or without a religious reason.

An adult should be able to pursue love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults. That should be obvious to anyone who takes off the blinders.

Man Sentenced to Whipping, Prison for Incest

Once again, the report does not provide enough information for us to have a hint as to whether this was consensual sex or rape. If it was the former, then it should never have been prosecuted.

A visually-impaired man was jailed 18 years and ordered to be whipped 10 times by the Sessions Court here yesterday for committing incest with his 18-year-old daughter.

According to the facts of the case, the 47-year-old father, a masseur committed the offence at their house in Jalan Dang Wangi between 2007 and June 24, 2011.

Is she 18 now, or was she 18 in 2007? The age of consent in Malaysia is 16.

During mitigation, the man, who was unrepresented, asked for a lenient sentence telling the court that he had to support two wives who were similarly visually-impaired and eight daughters, aged between six months and 22 years.

The daughter is now 30 weeks pregnant.

We really need just a little more information. There’s not even a statement from the daughter, the supposed victim. Anonymity can be protected while still informing the reader as to whether this was consensual or not.

Polygyny in Bible

This blog is focused on the rights of adults to love, sex, and marriage. I generally try to stay out of religious disputes, only touching on religion in how the freedom of religion is violated with various marriage bans, or in whether or not certain religious groups support or oppose full marriage equality.

I support things like Islam-based polygyny or Mormonism-based polygyny (“plural marriage”) only in the sense that I support the right of consenting adults to enter into these marriages and have them legally recognized. However, this must be within a legal system that has gender equality, allows divorce, and prosecutes domestic violence.

With that in mind, I was interested in what Ronnie Bray had to say about plural marriage. Bray writes about himself…

I do not act under the direction of, on behalf of, nor with approval either overt or tacit of 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.'

I create these pages as a free agent who is a Mormon, having more three score years of direct experience with Anti-Mormon Ministries, their Ministers, and their publications relating to Mormons, Mormon History, and Mormonism.

Bray wrote a paper, “Plural Marriage Commanded by God in the Holy Bible.”

Having decided to attack Mormons and Mormonism over thesubject of polygamy, an Anti-Mormon Attacker [PBUH] on FaceBook asserts that Mormonism is wrong because, he says without evidence of any weight, that the Bible clearly teaches monogamy. That will be a surprise to many Bible scholars that do not find any Divine condemnation of plural marriage when the Patriarchs practised it. He will be surprised to learn that plural marriage is taught as a religious and social principle from the Mouth of God, rather than it being condemned. Had it been condemned, the list of what God says is holy and acceptable to Him, and the lists of what God does not consider holy and acceptable would have stated this. As it is,whenever plural marriage is mentioned, it is not to condemn the practice, but to regulate it.

He goes on to provide examples.

I support the right to engage in polygyny, and I appreciate polygynists who express solidarity for full marriage equality, rather than working against other freedoms to marry.

Marriage Equality: Gender Inequality Elsewhere No Reason to Deny Here

The right to marry or to personal consortium should not be abridged or denied in on account of...

...sex, gender, sexual orientation,
(gay marriage, same-sex marriage)

...ancestry,
(interracial marriage, exogamous marriage)

...consanguinity,
(incestuous marriage, consanguineous marriage, consanguinamorous marriage, hyperendogamous marriage)

...or number of participants.
(polygamous marriage, plural marriage, polygynous marriage, polyandrous marriage, group marriage, triad marriage, dyadic network marriage, polyamorous marriage, open marriage)

One of the most widely used "arguments" against the polygamous freedom to marry it this...

“It oppresses women.”

Gender equality and the right to be unmarried or to divorce are necessary components of full marriage equality. Anti-equality people often point to polygyny in certain cultures, past and present, where women do not have equal rights. However, this is not proof that polygyny, much less the larger scope of polygyny, oppresses women. Women would be oppressed in those cultures with or without polygyny. If a woman wants to marry a man who has other wives rather than another man who is unmarried man, and the other wives agree, why deny her that choice? If a woman wants to marry two men (polyandry), or a man and a woman, or two women, she should have that right, too. Some women enjoy polygamy, including polygyny, and they should have the right to consent to the marriage of their choosing.

As we celebrate the birthday of the US, let us be true to the principles of liberty, freedom to pursue happiness, and equality.

This was adapted from my page on Discredited Arguments against marriage equality.

Marriage Equality: Some Abuse Cases No Reason to Deny

The right to marry or to personal consortium should not be abridged or denied in on account of...

...sex, gender, sexual orientation,
(gay marriage, same-sex marriage)

...ancestry,
(interracial marriage, exogamous marriage)

...consanguinity,
(incestuous marriage, consanguineous marriage, consanguinamorous marriage, hyperendogamous marriage)

...or number of participants.
(polygamous marriage, plural marriage, polygynous marriage, polyandrous marriage, group marriage, triad marriage, dyadic network marriage, polyamorous marriage, open marriage)

One of the most widely used "arguments" against a freedom to marry, or full marriage equality, is this one used against polygamous or consanguineous (incestuous) marriage...

“They’re abusive.”

But these types of relationships are not inherently abusive. Abusive people are the cause of abuse, not marriage. There are many heterosexual, monogamous, nonconsanguineous marriages in which someone is abused. We have several examples showing that outlawing consensual behavior correlates to an increase in problems as people try to avoid law enforcement and other authorities. Marriage equality will most certainly reduce abuse, as abuse victims can go to the authorities with much less fear. So the solution isn’t the status quo, it is in making the relationships official, and prosecuting abusers. Victims will be much more forthcoming.

As we celebrate the birthday of the US, let us be true to the principles of liberty, freedom to pursue happiness, and equality.

This was adapted from my page on Discredited Arguments against marriage equality.

Marriage Equality: "Ewww!" Is No Reason to Deny It

Almost always, bigots trying to justify their prejudice in denying full marriage equality use a few standard arguments that have already been discredited, invalidated, and do not stand up in court. Often, they are very much like the arguments that were used to prevent interracial couples from marrying.

This blog exists to promote full marriage equality, the right to marry for all. This means every adult should have the freedom to marry the person or persons he or she loves, and not to face criminal charges, denial of housing or employment, denial of protection from bullying, denial of child custody, or any other form of discrimination based on prejudice against the relationship.

Consenting adults should be able to enter into the marriages of their choosing, or, if they don't want to marry, they should still be able to have the relationships of their choosing without marriage.

The right to marry or to personal consortium should not be abridged or denied in on account of...

...sex, gender, sexual orientation,
(gay marriage, same-sex marriage)

...ancestry,
(interracial marriage, exogamous marriage)

...consanguinity,
(incestuous marriage, consanguineous marriage, consanguinamorous marriage, hyperendogamous marriage)

...or number of participants.
(polygamous marriage, plural marriage, polygynous marriage, polyandrous marriage, group marriage, triad marriage, dyadic network marriage, polyamorous marriage, open marriage)

One of the most widely used "arguments" against a freedom to marry, or full marriage equality, is this...

“It is disgusting.”
“Ick”
“Eww!”
“Gross!”

This explains why the person using the argument would not want to enter into the type marriage or have the kind of sex they want banned, but their own personal disgust is not a justification for preventing other people from doing something those other people want to do. Don’t want to have a same-sex marriage? Don’t have one. Some people are disgusted by the idea of heterosexual sex, or their parents having sex, but obviously this is not a justification to ban those things.

Some people find prejudice and bigotry, a lack of marriage equality, disgusting.

One person's disgust is no reason to deny other people their right to marry the person or persons they love. As we celebrate the birthday of the US, let us be true to the principles of liberty, freedom to pursue happiness, and equality.

This was adapted from my page on Discredited Arguments against marriage equality.

Equality, Life, Liberty, Happiness

It’s a big holiday weekend in the US, with Monday being a holiday: Independence Day. Connected to the day is the Declaration of Independence, which touts equality and notes that we have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

When the Declaration of Independence was written, equality was reserved for white, landowning, heterosexual, Christian males. Great strides have been made to extend equality to everyone else.

But we’re still on our journey. Equality, liberty, and the right to pursue happiness are, in many places in the US, and at the national government level, still denied to LGBT people. Even more so, these rights are denied to the polyamorous and the consanguinamorous.

But we are making progress, as demonstrated in New York.

Let’s keep moving forward so that an adult pursue love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults, and not be denied liberty, employment, housing, or anything else.