They Finally Found Love But Are Denied Their Rights

The couple featured in the interview below are a good-looking couple living in the US. Although if you met them you might notice there is an age difference between them, you'd never think, if you passed them on the street, that they would not only be denied the right to marry, but that their relationship would still be illegal in most states. They were generous enough with her time and privacy to be interviewed.

*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Anonymous Woman:  I am a forty-four year old adult adoptee and mother of two in a loving relationship with my seventy year old genetic father. My childhood was anything but happy. I had a cruel, abusive adoptive father. I got married very young and the marriage only lasted a couple of years. I married my second husband a year after the divorce. I’ve been separated from him for ten years.

I now live with my two kids, my genetic father/partner, and my ex.

Anonymous Man: I worked as a restaurant manager. I've been divorced for 35 years.


FME: Describe how you met or were reunited.

Woman: I found my father with one internet search. For years I only had three clues about my father: his first name, his best friend's from childhood's name, and where he was living around the time I was born. I was able to track down his best friend who told me my father's last name. It was an unusual last name which made him very easy to find.

My father never knew about me. He dated my mother briefly in but they parted ways before I was born. He never even knew she was pregnant with me.

They Served in the Military But Aren't Even Free to Marry

By my count, this is the twenty-first ongoing relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and denied their freedom to marry.

“Edward” and “Elizabeth” are genetic father and daughter, reunited after Elizabeth became an adult. I contacted Elizabeth after she linked to this blog. Since this is a Genetic Sexual Attraction situation that has led to a consanguinamorous relationship, Elizabeth and Edward value their privacy. Thankfully, they opened up to me and were generous enough with their time and privacy to be interviewed.

Read the interview below and ask yourself if there is one good reason their rights to love each other the way they want should be denied.


*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Elizabeth: I was born and raised on the west coast, and I moved in between living with my mother and my grandparents many times as a child. In the end I wound up with my mother, stepfather and half-sister...it was not an unhappy time, but my mother and stepfather had a very turbulent relationship and were very hard on me. After I graduated high school I was happy to go into the military and get out of the stressful situation, and got married at 19. I discharged from the military and moved to the Midwest with my husband to be closer to his family, and worked as a CNA/MA until recently. I was in the middle of getting this divorce when I moved in with Edward, which was the best decision I’ve ever made.

I’m 22 this year and I have planned to attend art school. As for my hobbies I like to read and play World of Warcraft, as well as browse the internet (if you can consider that a hobby). I have to say, I’ve never been happier in a relationship than I’ve been with Edward. He’s the best man for me.

Edward: I was born in the southwest where I lived most of my life. I joined the service at 19, married and moved to the east coast. Left the service at 21 and moved back west where I attended college and worked odd jobs. Moved to the mid-west at 23 where I worked more odd jobs. At 25 I moved to the Great Lakes area where I learned drafting and design. I moved back to the mid-west at 27 then back to the Great Lakes area by 30 and another move back to mid-west in 2003. I’ve been in this region since then. I am a 43 year old structural designer for the petroleum industry. I had given up on ever finding a meaningful relationship with any woman any age at this point in my life. I had consigned myself to the reality that I might very well be better off being alone for the rest of my days.

Liz and Ryan Update: Still Denied the Right to Marry

One of our favorite friends of FME and Friend of Lily, Liz, generously agreed to be interviewed for another update. You can read about the beautiful relationship she has with her brother by reading this original interview and this previous update. They are essentially married; but they are denied the legal recognition of their marriage by their own government, and not protected from discrimination or bullying. [This has been bumped up because of an update below - November 20, 2014]

***

FME: How are things going between you and your brother?

Liz: Things are going very well. Our relationship is still strong. Any arguments are minor and don't last long. We don't make love quite as often as we used to, but that's from Ryan being tired from being busy at work as much as it is from having to care for a baby. I still can’t imagine it being any better.


How is your daughter? Last I saw, she was an adorable baby.

She certainly is adorable, and I'm not saying that just because I'm her mom. She is a year-old now, and is walking. She is smart; she recognizes some words, and she figures out how to get into things. Ryan and I love being parents.


I noticed she didn't have two heads.

There is nothing wrong with her at all. Ten fingers, ten toes, completely perfect. I just wish people wouldn't keep making the same old comments when they hear about incest children - that they turn out to be freaks or something. It is simply not true.


As I like to say, most children born to close relatives are healthy, and if it wasn’t so, we’d all be in big trouble because most people, whether the records show it or not, have parents who were close relatives not too far back in their ancestry. Have you let any more people know about the full nature of your relationship, or has anyone else found out that you know of?

As of now, only our parents and one of my friends knows the truth. They needed time to adjust, but now they are OK with it. I have also met many people in online chats and they have been overwhelmingly supportive. I am thankful to those people.


You’re both attractive people. Have you or your brother had to decline date proposals from others, and if so, how have you handled that?

Not recently. People believe we're married, or they at least know we're a couple (without knowing we're related of course). In the past I have had to turn down guys. I told them I was seeing someone else, which was true.


People in love and in a closed relationship often have a “look,” even if they are somewhere by themselves, that tells other they are not available and that they are happy. I would imagine that is strong in your case, and now you have your young daughter with you. That probably lets people know not to bother asking you out. What do you want people to know who disapprove of your love, or say you are sick or that you couldn't possibly have consented to this relationship?

I want them to know that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. They can not convince me that it is wrong, because I know in my heart it is right. I have always felt it was right that my brother and I are together. I would feel empty without him, incomplete. He is my soulmate.


What do you want to say to supporters and allies?

Thank you, to everyone who support us, everyone who knows what we are doing is right. We need all the people we can to try to change society for the better. There are many people out there who are having these feelings and they are being told it's wrong. We need to reach out to them, support them, tell them it's OK. We need to work together to repeal the laws against incest. They've already done it in some countries and some states here in the US. We need to build on that.


I understand you are helping others. What can you tell us about that?

I have met many people through online chats. Some have wanted advice or help with their situation. I do whatever I can for them. Some are in situations that remind me strongly of the early days of my relationship with my brother, and I let them know that I understand what they are going through and I tell them what I did and how I got to where I am now. If anyone wants to chat with me, either for advice or just to talk about their situation, I am more than happy to do it.


Any additional advice to someone who has romantic or sexual feelings for a close biological relative?

Yes. First of all, you are not wrong or sick to have these feelings. There are many out there like you. Second, do not think that you will never be able to enjoy a romantic or sexual relationship with a relative. Yes, there is a chance that he or she would not feel the same way. However, you will never know unless you try. I wouldn't be in this wonderful relationship if my brother hadn't confessed how he felt to me, and I am so glad that he did. Just take things one step at a time, and when you feel it's the right time tell your brother, sister, mother, father, son, daughter, uncle, aunt, cousin, or whoever, how you feel. If you need help, there are people out there, like me, who will do what we can. You can do it, don't give up.


Any particular plans for the future? Would you still get legally married if you could?

Yes, we would get married if we could. We would announce our happiness to the world if we could. I don't like having to hide things from my friends and neighbors. As for future plans, we do plan on having more children one day. Also, we will one day have to find a larger house for our growing family.


Is there is anything else you want to add?

Never, ever give up. It sounds like a cliche, but it's true.

***

The years go by, and people in consanguinamorous relationships, living as spouses, have to hide and live with their freedom to marry being denied. We need full marriage equality sooner rather than later, so that they can have the marriages they want. It is ridiculous that they have to wait any longer.

Read other interviews here.

UPDATE from November 20, 2014...

Liz has joined the fun at Kindred Spirits. 

Here are a couple of the things she's had to say there, updating us on her love with Ryan.

I'm 25 and in a happy relationship with my brother. We have been together for some time, and live as a couple. It hasn't always been easy for us, of course, but we're happy and making this relationship work.

...

I am in a relationship with my brother, and we have a daughter. I had wanted to have a child for some time, but was unsure about whether it would be ok to do so. After researching and also chatting with couples like us who did have children we decided to do it. She is nearly 4 now, happy and healthy. I am so glad that we had her, and we do plan to have another. 

It's always good to hear from Liz.

Here's an update!

Ex Wife Wants to Make an Issue of Ex-BIL's Marriage

Someone in Illinois asked at avvo.com for legal answers regarding...

Recourse in keeping child from first cousin incestuous marriage exposure in Illinois: can I use this as a reason to get custody?

Let's get the details.

I live in Illinois, where marriage between first cousins is illegal.

Right, they have to both be over 50 or one has to be infertile. In almost half of the rest of the states, first cousins can legally marry without those conditions.

My ex-husband's brother married their first cousin, who was born in a foreign country.

Got that? It isn't something her ex is doing, it is that her ex's brother is married to his first cousin.

War, Peace, Game of Thrones?

At dailymail.co.uk, Arts Correspondent Chris Hastings reports on a BBC1 adaptation of Tolstoy's War and Peace, and there is something of interest to this blog.

Gillian Anderson is to star in a controversial new BBC1 adaptation of War And Peace which will feature an incestuous relationship and sex scenes not included in Leo Tolstoy’s original novel.

And later...

Davies has been criticised in the past for ‘sexing up’ the books he adapts for television, and the writer believes War And Peace is likely to cause a stir for the same reasons. He said: ‘I included entirely new scenes that were not in the novel.

‘These inevitably deal with the sexual side of things. Tolstoy is sometimes only able to hint at things which we can expand on.’ He added: ‘The surprising this is how modern and relevant these characters will appear to an audience.’

Davies also said his adaptation would also expand on what he believed was an incestuous relationship at the heart of the novel. He said: ‘Tolstoy does hint at this relationship in the novel but we are going to be quiteclear about it.

‘There will be a scene where a brother and sister show their real feelings for each other, and I don’t think viewers will be in any doubt about their attraction.’

So what do you think? Does this sound like a good thing? Or will this be more demonizing of consanguinamory?

Meanwhile, if you want novels that don't just hint, I recommend Love's Forbidden Flower and Time's Forbidden Flower by Diane Rinella.

From Friends to Lovers to Spouses

I've done many exclusive interviews with lovers denied  their right to marry, and usually denied the freedom to just be open about their love for each other. Unfortunately, the prejudice against consanguinamory has an impact even when and where it isn’t enshrined in law. Just read the interview below to see how this is so.

The woman in this interview is an intelligent, educated, attractive adult, the kind of person you might be happy to have living next to or you might see every day, married to another adult. Yet they face discrimination and prejudice for their love, even from members of her own family. They aren't hurting anyone; so why the hate?


Read the interview below and see for yourself what she has to say. You may think her relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, but either way, should they be punished for loving each other?

*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe yourself.

Anonymous Woman: I am a 28-year-old white female of Irish descent living in Tennessee. I am 5'2” with blonde hair and green eyes. I’m fully employed and have an Associate's degree in Psychology. I’m two classes away from my Bachelor's degree in Psychology. I have no children. I have a half-sister who is 18 years my junior. I like to read; I’ve been reading since I was three. I’m an animal lover.


FME: How long have you been married?

This is my second marriage and I’ve been married since July 2013.


FME: How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship orientation?

I am heterosexual and in a monogamous relationship.


FME: You are married to you your biological first cousin, once removed? How old is he?

Yes, my maternal grandfather and my husband's father were brothers. My husband is 42, so he’s 14 years my senior.

A Thriving Young Woman Despite Discrimination Against Her Mother

I've profiled dozens of ongoing relationships through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law. However, I'd been missing opportunities to further inform visitors to my blog, as pointed out by some Friends of Full Marriage Equality. So now, in addition to seeking interviews with the lovers themselves, I am also asking for friends and family of such lovers for interviews.

The inaugural interview of this new series is below, and features a remarkably well-spoken young woman whose life was impacted negatively by discrimination against her mother's consensual relationship. Fortunately, as you'll read, things weren't nearly as bad as they could have been, especially when it comes to a prior relationship her mother had, the one that birthed the interviewee.

Read the interview below and ask yourself who hurt her... her mother or the people who persecuted her mother?



*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe yourself and your background.

Anonymous Woman: I’m 20 years old, Eurasian and an atheist. I live with my partner of six years and have olive skin and tattoos. I’m roughly around 165cms tall and I’m the oldest child in my family. When I’m not working as a waitress, I love to spend my time outdoors being active and staying physically fit or playing PlayStation inside. I've been home-schooled all my life and enjoy mixing with people from all walks of life. I’m extremely accepting and love nothing more than to learn and soak up as much knowledge as I can.

Letter Writer to Dear Abby Wants MIL to Cover Up

A recent Dear Abby column had a letter under the title of "Mom Lets It All Hang Out in Front of Grown Sons." COVERED UP IN THE MIDWEST wrote...

I am 30 and my husband, "Brent," is 35. We have had some financial troubles lately and recently had to move in with my mother-in-law.

So her MIL is doing her a favor.

My question is, how old should a child be before his mother quits walking around naked in front of him?

There isn't really a "should." Some people, some families are naturists or nudists and even some who aren't prefer to be nude at least some of the time in their own home.

My mother-in-law still walks around completely nude in front of Brent and his 39-year-old brother. 

Is there a problem? Is she in better shape than the letter writer?

Oregon Prosecuting Consenting Adults, Tearing Children Away From Parents

Chelsea Gorrow reports at registerguard.com that authorities in the US state of Oregon, which is generally supposed to be progressive, have decided to persecute consenting adults for their sex life and ruin them. The Register-Guard has used their names and a picture of at least one of them.

A father and his adult daughter are facing charges of incest after their arrests in Klamath Falls, Springfield police said.

So the authorities were so determined to do this that they were willing to go to another jurisdiction to make the arrests.

Two children who are a result of their relationship have been placed in foster care, according to detectives.

So now the authorities are traumatizing children. Why?

Eric Lee Gates, 49, and his daughter, Chalena Moody, 25, both formerly lived in Springfield. Gates was arrested Dec. 23 in Klamath Falls and extradited Wednesday to Lane County, where he was arraigned and pleaded not guilty. He is expected back in court Feb. 11.

They are consenting adults. This is a waste of taxpayer resources.

Looking at Consanguineous Ancestors at Reddit

Someone using the name Doncuneo asked at reddit.com for responses from people who have consanguineous ancestry...

[Serious] Redditors who are the products of incest (parents, Grand, Great Grand etc.) have any genetic disorders or recessive traits affected you?serious replies only

When I last checked,  there were many hundreds of responses. Here are just a few below. It is a reinforcement of what this blog has said before; one usually doesn't have to go far back in their family history to find ancestors who were close relatives.

Please note that the way the question was asked solicited responses that include accounts of two very different things: assault and sex (which is consensual). It is also important to keep in mind that genetics are just one of many factors that can contribute to health problems.

Senator Feinstein Introduces (Limited) Respect For Marriage Act

I'm bumping up this argument from March 2011 because I'm hearing that the RFMA is being given another push...


US Senator Dianne Feinstein (California) has introduced a bill for a limited Respect For Marriage Act, which would repeal DOMA, the Denial of Marriage Act. The bill, if it becomes law without any other changes in law, would simply remove at least a portion of the unconstitutional DOMA so that same-sex marriages created in states or countries that currently recognize them would be recognized by the US government. Currenty, no same-sex marriages are.

Reading the language of the bill, it appears to me that it is possible that if one state were to gain the polygamous freedom to marry or the consanguineous freedom to marry (or, do the right thing and institute full marriage equality), the US government would recognize those marriages, too.

The Respect for Marriage Act would repeal DOMA and restore the rights of all lawfully married couples – including tens of thousands of same-sex couples – to receive the benefits of marriage under federal law.

Under current law, legally married, same-sex couples cannot take advantage of federal protections available to every other married couple in this country. These couples cannot:

File joint federal income taxes and claim certain deductions;

Receive spousal benefits under Social Security;

Take unpaid leave under the Family and Medical Leave Act when a loved one falls seriously ill;

Obtain the protections of the estate tax when one spouse passes and wants to leave his or her possessions to another.

And this is important to note…

Joining Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) are co-sponsors: Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.), John Kerry (D-Mass.), Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), Chris Coons (D-Del.), Ron Wyden (D-Ore.), Frank R. Lautenberg (D-N.J.), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.), Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Al Franken (D-Minn.), Patty Murray (D-Wash.), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.), Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), Mark Udall (D-Colo.), Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.), Dan Inouye (D-Hawaii), and Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii).

It’s a good start, but I call on these Senators to make history for equality and propose the Marriage Equality Amendment.

Newspapers Get Letters Confusing Consanguinamory With Abuse

Steve Casey of Stonewall wrote in to dailycomet.com very concerned that other people might have relationships or sex.

On Dec. 21, I heard a radio speaker tell about a recent debate in which he had been invited to participate.

The subject of debate was the new hot topic in the changing of American moral values. There were five people in the debate, and the speaker I was hearing was the only one standing for traditional values while the other four were on the side of change and the acceptance of “new standards.”

The new hot topic was: “Should consensual adult incest be legalized?”

Sounds like he's referring to this.

A few years ago, in my annual practice of reading through the Bible, I noted all scriptures that refer to human sexuality.

Irrelevant to secular law. But I do wonder if he noticed this?

If consensual incest between adults becomes acceptable it will increase incest involving all ages.

And the proof of this is? Is...? Oh, right, there is none. Adults have all sorts of rights, entitlements, and responsibilities that minors do not have, just as minors have all sorts of rights, entitlements, and protections that adults do not have. We can't deny adults their rights because of some imagined effect on the behavior of children. It's the same argument often used against erotica ("But what if the children get a hold of it?")

Recently, my wife participated in local grand jury hearings. The hearings were to determine whether or not there was enough evidence to bring the cases to trial. All of the cases involved adult molestation of juveniles. Some involved incest.

Notice how he switched from talking about consenting adults to adults assaulting minors.

Since he brought it up, I'll point out just one way how continued criminalization of consanguinamory can actually hurt children. Let's say the main witness to abuse of the child is, herself, in a consensual relationship with her long lost half brother. The abuser and the abuser's attorney can use the fact that her relationship is illegal to prevent her from cooperating with police (she may already be reluctant to) or to attack her in court and the media. However, if we decriminalize adult relationships, she would be much more likely to speak out, file a police report, and testify effectively against the abuser.

Acceptable incest would lead to the total destruction of the family.

An assertion with nothing backing it up. This blog has documented the opposite, repeatedly. Laws against consensual adult relationships destroy families.

Perhaps this letter writer simply doesn't like that people enjoy themselves and each other and love one another in ways his religious community has decided are wrong?

There is no good reason for the continued criminalization of consensual adult relationships.