Allies for Intrafamilial Sex

I found an interesting discussion from a year and a half ago, on consanguineous sex and the faulty arguments made against it, over at the Asexual Visibility and Education Network. TheLuminousFishEffect wrote “Shockingly, cliched slogans don't constitute valid arguments.”

"It's good to be open minded, but not so much so that your brain falls out."

I hate this. I really really do. It's become the last bastion of defence used by people who've run out of arguments of substance. Take, for example, a recent discussion over marriage between close family members I had. The general gist of the argument went thusly:

A: It's weird
Me: So? It's not hurting anyone, is it?
A: Yeah, but it's un-natural.
Me: So's the internet, but I don't see you complaining about that.
A: But the children have a higher chance of genetic deformities.
Me: What if they don't have children?
A: Accidents happen.
Me: Not if they were careful. Condoms alone have about a 98pc effectiveness rate. The pill has a 99+pc. Personally, I'd take those odds (were I so inclined). And they could have a vasectomy or hysterectomy.
A: What if they split up and want children with other partners?
Me: Well, they could either adopt or have their respective gametes frozen. The male could have the vasectomy reversed.
A: It still shouldn't be allowed.
Me: You just want it proscribed because it repulses you.
A: It's good to be open-minded, but not so much so that your brain falls out.

What? WTF? In what magickal land does that constitute an actual argument?

Exactly.

mad_scientist agreed…

I used to be strongly anti-incest before I actually bothered to consider the situation.

That’s often how it works.

Sally…

Having an incestuous relationship certainly takes care of the awful in-law problem.

Good one.

ProdeFemme...

As for the 'keep it in the family' thing, well certainly not something I'd consider but hell, if everyone is an adult and on board with the idea who am I to say?

Thank you for being an ally.

A Lack of Solidarity

Responding to something written by Peter Heck, Travis Gulbrandson throws polyamorous people and consanguinamorous people under the bus with his lack of solidarity.

He concludes his column with the warning that when one group seeks to “undefine” (his term) marriage, it will open the door for others and eventually lead to “the legalization of every form of sexual activity, from polygamy to incest to bestiality.”

Hogwash.

For starters, the idea that a normal homosexual relationship between two consenting adults could be compared with examples such as these is a grotesque insult to the estimated millions of gay men and women who live in this country. Polygamy, incest and bestiality are all forms of abuse based on the exploitation of a weaker party.

Is the writer simply uninformed? Many adults have freely consented to and enjoyed polygamous relationships and consanguineous relationships (sometimes, as one in the same), including as marriages. Abuse is not involved.

They are crimes, pure and simple.

In some places, they are. In some places in the US merely a few years ago, same-sex relationships were, too. None of them should be crimes.

Why, oh why, Mr. Gulbrandson, couldn’t you have stood up for full marriage equality and written that child abuse, animal abuse, domestic violence, and rape will still be illegal if we allow adults to marry each other? Instead of throwing other people under the bus, how about calling out the bigots by asking them to explain exactly what is wrong with full marriage equality?

LaVictoire Shows More Solidarity for Poly People

Bridgette P. LaVictoire writes about the wing of the Southern Baptists who oppose marriage equality, focusing on current issues surrounding DOMA (the Denial of Marriage Act). These people are panicking as they see marriage equality advancing, and you can find much about that by reading LaVictoire's write-up Then, she gets into consanguineous sex…

Should incest be considered immoral? More than likely because it has a deleterious effect on the genetics of the society.

Ah. Discredited Argument #18

Should it be illegal? That is harder to gauge. The vast, vast majority of incest is non-consensual and would easily fall into other categories such as rape. Can one say that the dynamics regarding incest ever make it truly consensual? That is a complex discussion, but one that is not going to be taking place.

It is taking place, and it should. More people need to give up their prejudice against such relationships. As noted, there are laws against rape and child abuse. We're not talking about that, any more than we’re talking about male-on-male pedophilia when we're talking about same-sex marriage. Any adult should have the right to love, sex, and marriage with ANY other adults.

When it comes to homosexuality, and let us face it, polyamory, the arguments against are rooted in culture and religion, not in any kind of real debate of facts.

It is good to see her show solidarity with poly people. Hopefully, she will show more solidarity for all. Equality just for some is not equality. We need full marriage equality.

Opening Minds to Nonmonogamy

Dr. Judith Stacey is the author of "Love, Marriage and Family Values: West Hollywood to China," and gave a lecture as covered here by Kim Halpin. She has researched the modern family. Part of her talk addressed nonmonogamy…

Another focus of her talk was redefining fidelity, which Stacey said she views as more of a commitment to integrity than to monogamy. Many couples are committed to their agreements for open relationships, and staying together can provide more happiness for them than separating for being "unfaithful."

Overall, Stacey expressed that she wants her new book to do "more good than harm in getting people to think." She urged the audience to reconsider social stigmas against polygamy and traditional marriage values. Audience members responded with informed questions and were able to engage in an open dialog with Stacey on the points she presented.

It is very important for people to realize that monogamy is just one path a marriage can take. Marriages can be open, they can involve swapping, they can involve swinging, and they can be polyamorous with or without polyfidelity. All of this can be done without cheating. Our laws should not favor one path over another; rather, every adult should have their right to marry any consenting adults.

Teachers in India Denied Freedom to Marry

In India, discrimination against polygamous marriage is official government policy.

Those aspiring to be teachers or headmasters in private secondary and higher secondary schools receiving grants from the state government must beware.

They would be disqualified if they happen to have more than one spouse. The new fiat is applicable to both male as well as female teachers.

If a male teacher having a wife, marries another woman or enters into a contract of marriage with another woman, he will be disqualified to be appointed as a teacher or headmaster.

Similarly, if a woman marries a man or enters into a contractual wedding with a man already having a wife will not be eligible for the post of a teacher or headmaster in any grant-in-aid private schools.

The new fiat has been issued by the State Education Department recently and circulated to all the grant-in-aid schools across the state.

No explanation is given in the article as to why this is done. Probably because it is sheer bigotry. India, like so many other countries, needs to move towards full marriage equality.

Isa is Thoughtful

Isa quotes Wkikipedia on incest…

The reason I’m writing about incest is because of two books I recently read that involved this issue. In one, (The Good Daughter, by Joyce Maynard), a brother and sister who are separated at birth fall in love and engage in a sexual relationship (they intend to marry and have a baby), when they discover that they are in fact brother and sister and they separate and abort the baby. There is a lot of shame and pain involved in this story and the way the characters feel towards each other. They never actually talk again, and for both of them – it is a relief.

There are real life cases like that one, though such couples should get counseling that helps them to get past the irrational shame so they can be together. They should also get legal representation so that they can avoid absurd laws.

I know that incest is something not simply frowned upon, but considered taboo in many, if not most, societies. My question is: why?

Besides the issue of inbreeding and increased possibility of birth defects (another excerpt from Wikipedia is below), what else is fundamentally wrong about related persons having a romantic relationship?

There isn’t anything wrong.

I am in no way saying that it would be a good thing to promote incestual relationships (and there are many instances of nonconsensual incestuous relationships that occur in the form of sexual abuse), but the story that I mentioned above between the brother and sister who did not know they were related, felt sad to me. It felt like they were giving up on a relationship and a life because they felt they did something terribly wrong and horrible. And I don’t know that they did.

They didn’t do anything wrong. Laws and taboos against consensual adult incest, like current laws and policies that discourage or treat with inequality same-sex relationships and polyamorous relationships are vestiges of a time when a handful of people tried to control the sexuality of others. Time, and progress, march on. If more people were to think this through, especially if they were aware of people they know being involved with a close relative, they would see that there's nothing wrong.

Another Look at Polygamy

Rebekah Hebbert asks what harm comes from polygamy, referencing the Canadian poly trial.

She cites the allegations against some in Bountiful and some other FLDS communities.

And what will happen now that the judiciary has to decide which should prevail: freedom of religion, or some of the most basic values and norms of Canadian society?

The polygamous freedom to marry isn’t just about religious freedom. It is for the freedom of anyone, regardless of belief or nonbelief, who wants to marry more than one person. Marriage is a fundamental right.

But is this kind of harm, or any harm, inherent in polygamy?

No.

Surely monogamy has its own problems?

Yes. But if people want monogamy, they should be allowed.

Dr. Margaret Somerville, Samuel Gale Professor of Law at McGill University, in an interview with MercatorNet suggests that while not all alleged harms are inherent in polygamy, some indeed are.

“My primary objection would be for the children... I believe that family units are primarily for the benefit of the children.

Parenting and marriage not are not inherently connected. People are free to raise children alone or outside of marriage, and not all married people raise children. If someone is an unfit parent to the point of neglect or other abuse, take the child away.

“Children are best off with their mother and father, preferably their own biological parents unless an exception is justified as being in the best interests of a particular child...”

This claim was already shot down in courts in Canada and California and elsewere when the courts ruled in favor of the same-sex freedom to marry.

”Polygamy is an alternative adult arrangement, which is also difficult for some of the children who become adults within that arrangement.”

Some kids find it difficult in single parent homes or monogamous homes, especially with a stepparent. But we don’t outlaw a parent getting married.

Sommerville goes on with the standard bigotry she previously used against same-sex marriage.

An adult should have the right to marry any consenting adults.

Last Minute: For Nonmonogamous or Curious People in D.C.

Tonight, from 7 to 9 PM at the DC Center, Open Horizons founders Tony and Christina Vanderveldt will have a presentation on Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Swinging. There will be a guest speaker and open discussion.

More States Should be Like New Jersey

At least when it comes to incest laws. Jeanette Friedman has a commentary in which she appears to be really upset that New Jersey allows consenting adults to have sex with each other.

In the Soprano state where vice is nice, incest is best and legal among consenting adults.

And what is the problem with that? She seems to think there is, but doesn’t asttempt to provide even the most weak reason, as you’ll see.

It is incredible that in New Jersey, where Governor Chris Christie and Congressmen Chris Smith and Scott Garrett are political paragons of virtue, incest among consenting adults is perfectly legal, but therapeutic abortions to save the life of a mother won't be if those same men have their way.

Therapeutic abortions to save the life of a mother should of course be legal, as should sex between consenting adults.

Looks like the language in HR 3, HR 217, and HR 358, Congressional bills designed to do an end run around Roe v. Wade, was born in New Jersey. It’s also a sneaky way to make incest legal in America, since all three bills state incest only applies to people under 18.

I have not studied the bills. I suspect they are more about (not) funding abortion. Actually banning abortion would likely fail a court test. But it would be great if the laws actually will change incest laws to decriminalize consensual sex. Incest should only be illegal as part of an actual crime with a victim: rape, statutory rape, child abuse, etc. It is not a problem if an adult brother has sex with his consenting adult sister or his adult brother, or if all three of them have sex together. It is a problem when a 45-year-old does something with a 12-year-old, whether they are related or not.

New Jersey does not apply any penalties when both parties engaged in incest are 18 years of age or older.

This is to the state’s credit. Good for New Jersey.

The Bergen County prosecutor I spoke to, who stayed on background, wouldn’t say outright that it was legal and kept referring to sexual assault. He asked me to read the sexual assault statute, and I kept asking, “What if the victim doesn’t understand that this is sexual assault? What if Daddy is in control?” There was no comment — but they won't prosecute if the victim is 18+.

She goes on to write that “incest is always rape.”

So let’s see if I understand this. A woman can run corporations, operate machinery and motor vehicles, be trusted with guns and law enforcement, run into burning buildings to save people as part of their job, be Secretary of State, be Speaker of the House, consent to abortion (even if she is 13), join the military, vote, and can date ten men at once, all of whom are fifty years older than her. But she can’t possibly consent to have sex with her own father, nor her mother, nor her brother, not her sister.

Do I have that right?

This, of course, is Discredited Argument #20.

We have laws against child abuse, sexual assault, rape, and statutory rape, and they should be strongly enforced regardless of who the perp is. There is no need to have a law against any kind of sex between consenting adults. If a young adult woman is unable, in the writer's view, to truly consent to sex with her father, does that ever change? How about when she is 30 and he is 60? When she is 40 and he is 70?

It may disgust her, but a lot of people are (or were) disgusted by gay sex and interracial sex, too. Their disgust is not a good enough reason to criminalize the sex lives of others. (See #1)

An adult should have the right to love, sex, and marriage with any other adult.

Sounds Like a Normal Boy

Shanny Angeles asks, “Whats wrong with my cousin?”

He been attracted to me eversince we were 8 or 7.& like if he saw me one day he would be all like calm normal & funny,the next hes like asking me if I wanna make out or some sexual things like that.

Sounds like a normal boy these days.

Also I think that he has Genetic Sexual Attraction because hes been attracted to me alot.

Genetic Sexual Attraction is what is used to describe a phenomenon that occurs in many cases in which people who were separated when at least one of them was very young, perhaps not even born, and reunited after puberty.

Anything I should keep in mind or something?& no way I dont want some deformed baby hes only 14 & im 13 right now,

She shouldn’t be having babies at that age. However, most children born to first cousins have no significant birth defect. Marriages between first cousins, at least between males and females, are legal (and even common) in many places around the world.

She does not say she isn’t attracted to him; she expresses concerns, perhaps because of her age or misconceptions about consanguineous sex.

Some minors are sexually active at that age, and provided her cousin really cares about her, she’s probably better off experimenting with him than with someone else, especially someone older. My general advice to people her age is that they should wait and direct their energy towards their education, interests, and friendships. If they don’t follow that advice, they should consult with a physician to make sure they understand everything involved. They should also note the age of consent laws in their jurisdiction.

Stacey…

i would have a talk to your family about it your mam r dad? it is not normal for that to happen and you shouldn't feel uncomfortable with your own family hun your too young to be asked things like that in the first place so just take care of your self

This certainly is not abnormal. She didn’t indicate that she was feeling pressured. She should only tell her parents if she is uncomfortable and wants him to stop. She didn’t indicate that.

Laura…

I don't think there is anything wrong with him or you, you are young and hormones are in overdrive, its just a natural attraction and curiosity towards a each other. I doubt at the age of 8 it was a sexual attraction! You need to make it clear to him if his actions and suggestions towards you make you uncomfortable.

Good answer.

jacob decibel…

Nothing is wrong with your cousin, but if he's making you feel uncomfortable, tell him to knock it off. And if he doesn't listen to you, threaten to go to your aunt and uncle.

Good advice. Many adults who are first cousins marry and have full, happy lives together. Unfortunately, there are some places, including some US states, where they are denied the freedom to marry. This girl's cousin may outgrow his current attraction, or maybe they'll grow together. How many of us ended up with our childhood crushes?

Another Superfluous Incest Prosecution

Russell Lee Engleman, 49, of Santa Ana, California, sounds like a real piece of work. Thankfully, he’s going to prison and will be unlikely to eligible for parole. He hasn’t been sentenced quite yet, though.

A five-man, seven-woman jury deliberated for a day and a half before finding Engleman guilty of nine counts of lewd acts upon a child under 14, three counts of using young girls for pornographic purposes, and one count of possession of child pornography for images found on his computer. He was also convicted of several penalty-enhancing allegations of substantial sexual conduct and committing crimes against multiple victims.

District Attorney Heather Brown argued that Engleman engaged in continuous sexual abuse with one of his victims from the time she was 9 until she was 13.

Brown said Engleman molested the second victim -- daughter of a friend -- over a three-year period by inviting his friend to visit with his daughter at the auto repair shop.

Engleman also used his adult daughter to help him molest and take pictures of the third girl, the daughter of another friend, when she was 12, Brown said.

All of that should have been more than enough to send him away for life. But there was more…

Engleman earlier pleaded guilty to four counts of incest for having sex with his daughter when she was 17 and 18, Brown said.

I understand that 17 is below the age of consent in California. Why bother with charging him for sex with an 18-year-old? If it was rape, charge him with rape. Like I said, he should be in prison for life for what he did to minor girls.

The problem is, laws criminalizing sex between adults aren’t only used against scumbags like this. They are also used against people who don’t hurt anyone. Send child molesters and rapists to prison for life. Decriminalize sex between adults.

Family Flees Due to Incest Allegations

According to allegations, the Molo man has been living in a spousal relationship with his daughter.

Joseph Chirchir is alleged to have run away on Thursday night with the daughter-turned-wife and their three children.

The man is claiming he was framed, but he shouldn't need to defend himself. It seems people really get enjoyment from harassing others or breaking up their families. The law should not support that.