Married in Their Hearts

We have another exclusive interview to bring you. As this interview is being published, there are still many people spending more time home with family members. Perhaps some of them will find this interview an inspiration? Or they can see this for some possibilities.

People in consanguinamorous relationships are everywhere, though consanguinamorists tend to be closeted. Fortunately, some are willing to be interviewed for this blog. As a result, Full Marriage Equality has featured scores of exclusive interviews with lovers denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.

The couple interviewed below should be free to legally marry, or simply to live together in any place in the world without having to hide, yet they can't. They are consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone; why should they be denied their rights? In much of the world, they could be criminally prosecuted for their love. Fortunately, they are not breaking the law in their country.

Read the interview below and see for yourself what they have to say. You may think this relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, or you might find it ideal, even highly erotic and romantic, but whatever your reaction, should these lovers be denied equal access to marriage or any other rights, or be ostracized simply because they love each other this way?

Genetic Sexual Attraction is real, as we see time and time again. And if it brings people together, no law should interfere. Prejudice against their relationship for being "incest" is irrational and harmful.

*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe yourselves.

Lavinia: I'm 50 years-old, white, Brazilian born and raised in São Paulo. I graduated in Publicity. I work consulting in a reputable company in the field. I love cooking and I love Leo.

Leo: I’m 33 years old, Brazilian born and raised in São Paulo. I graduated in Business Administration, and currently working in my own company. You can say I'm successful.

I currently live in São Paulo with my wife, who is my birth mother.

Appearance can be a bit tricky because of the great ethnic mix of the country. Although my birth mother is white, I inherited the color of my father, which is olive or tan. I’m 185cm (6'1"), 80kg (176lb), brown hair, honey eyes. Despite the differences, I am quite similar to her and in the past some people came to ask if we were siblings.

I like to go hiking with my wife. Actually, I like anything with her. I like music, sports, video games, comics, books, movies. I love dogs and cats.

FME: You refer to her as your wife. Are you married?

Leo: We went to one of the biggest churches in town. As it was empty, we asked the priest for a few moments of privacy in front of the altar.

We recited the vows and exchanged rings. It was just the two of us present.


FME: How would you describe your gender? How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship orientation... are you heterosexual, bisexual, what? Are you monogamous, polyamorous or....?

Lavinia: I'm female, heterosexual, monogamist.

Leo: I’m male.

I don't know how to define my sexuality, honestly. I had an experience with a "femboy" where I was active and what attracted me was the femininity of him. I don't know if this characterizes me as Bi, but I'm attracted to what's feminine, then I consider myself straight.

I’m monogamous.


FME: To be clear, you in a sexual and romantic relationship with your genetic/birth mother?

Leo: Yes.


FME: What was your childhood like? What was family life like? Were alternative lifestyles/sex discussed in your family, and if so, how?

Lavinia: I guess you could say it was normal. My adolescence, on the other hand, was complicated. I had a hard time understanding myself, knowing what I liked. I ended up arguing a lot with my parents because I thought they were against me, trying to control me. I couldn't see that they were trying to help me and I ended up pushing them away.

I don't remember talking about alternative lifestyles. 

I always had an interest in actors and beautiful artists, I always liked boys. 

Leo: My childhood was quite normal, I think. I used to play a lot of soccer and video games.

I always tried to have time for my little sister, playing or trying to help with her homework. I’d always wanted to have an older sibling, so I tried to be for her the image I had of the older sibling I wanted.

My family was very close. We weren't rich, but we never lacked anything. My mother, who was technically my stepmother, always treated me as hers. Even after my sister was born she never treated me differently.

My father was my hero, literally. I wanted to be like him.

We loved soccer and I tried to be professional for the most part because of him. He always supported me and gave me advice.

Pretty much every memory I have of them is good.

I don't remember talking about lifestyles or sex, but I remember my mother telling me that I wasn't obliged to accept anything, but that I was obliged to respect other people's choices.


FME: How did it happen that you didn't raise Leo?

Lavinia: I got pregnant when I was 16 and gave birth at 17. After he was born, I had Postpartum Depression and even after being treated, I couldn't connect with him.

I understood that I wasn't ready for that, I barely understood and knew myself at the time. I wanted to give him up for adoption so he'd have a chance to have a family that could provide him with what I couldn't.

I ended up having a big argument with his father, who at the time was my boyfriend. We broke up and he stayed with him.

After that, I talked to my parents and moved to my uncles' house in Curitiba to complete my studies and move away for some time.

I talked to his father eventually to find out how things were going, he criticized me for not trying to correspond with him, but from my perspective I had nothing to offer as a person, as a mother. I was afraid. My parents visited him and tried to be a part of his life, but they thought it best to walk away after his father got married.

I completed my studies, dedicated myself to work and matured a lot in this process, after ten or eleven years I rarely spoke to his father and began to be curious about what he was like. This interest grew along with shame and fear that he would hate me or have a grudge.

Four years later I decided and went back to São Paulo.

I thought I'd talk to his father and his wife before i got in touch with him. His stepmother was hostile to me, she felt no sympathy even after explaining myself to her.

His father gave me a choice, I could follow his rules or try to get into court so I could get access to him. I chose the first option.

He wanted to make sure that I would settle in São Paulo and that I would not disappear from his life once I entered.

I got an apartment, a job and I was talking to him during the process, halfway through the accident [killing his father, stepmother, and half sister] happened. I needed to at least try to help him somehow and I went to the funeral.

I saw that young man with empty eyes, he looked so alone.

I wanted to hug him, but I controlled myself. I introduced myself and said I was his birth mother, left my phone number and said I'd get in touch. I thought I'd get out of there, because I didn't feel welcome.

I went on to visit him at his grandparents' house, most of the time he was doped and seemed alone. 

The first time I saw him in that situation, my heart tightened, but somehow I knew what to do. I lay with him in bed and hugged him as tight as I could.  He reciprocated my hug and we stayed that way until he fell asleep.

From there our interactions were increasing, I started visiting him more often until he went to spend time with me at my house.


FME: What did you know about your birth mother?

Leo: I don't remember exactly when I found out, but I knew of her existence. My father told me that she lived in another city and that she was a very busy woman.

He told me that one day I would meet her and that she would explain things to me. But honestly, I never worried or had much interest because in my head I had a mother who was always with me, who was the woman my father married.

I was 15 when I lost my father, mother, and younger sister in the accident. I was supposed to be with them, but I was called up to participate in a soccer championship.

I didn't get any positive or negative impression when I met her because it was a rather complicated time.

I ended up staying with my maternal grandparents and it was hard. I was so deep in the well that I'd forgotten I was in a well. And for my grandparents things weren't much better. 

She came to visit me a few times, we hardly ever talked because I was doped most of the time, but she always did something I liked or wanted. Sometimes she stroked my hair until I went to sleep, sometimes she would lie with me and hug me tight, sometimes she would just sit and we would stare at each other without saying anything.

The frequency of visits increased and we got very attached. 

We started talking and one day we touched on the subject of why she excluded me from her life during those years. She asked for forgiveness.

I understood her circumstances but explained that I had my own circumstances, that she would never be my mother, but that we could be friends.

We got along instantly, to be honest. The strangest thing was this understanding we had of each other, it was as if I knew her since forever. She knew things I liked without me having ever mentioned it and often we understood each other only with looks.

She asked me if I didn't want to spend time with her, that maybe it would help. I accepted and agreed with my grandparents that I would stay with her for a while.

We went to her house and as soon as we walked in she told me several things about me and about what I was going through internally. About things I never said, things that until then, only I knew.

I barely knew this woman and she was able to see through me when we barely exchanged words. That day I cried until I slept in her arms.

I was in a dangerous place and she was the only one who could see it. She helped me release my demons and I started moving on.

We got along extremely well and before I could know we were already best friends. What was supposed to be for a while ended up lasting four years.


FME: How did sexual affection become a part of the relationship between you? Was it a sudden event or a gradual process? Did you know ahead of time it was going to turn sexual or was it more spontaneous? Is it clear who made the first move? When did you notice an attraction?

Lavinia: It was gradual. A few years after our coexistence, I came to notice how Leo had matured splendidly. He had become a handsome man and in some situations I found myself thinking "Wow, he's hot." I'd catch myself staring at him, but since I'm terrible at disguising myself, he'd notice.

I began to notice that he also stared me frequently, but I thought I was being self-conscious and I didn't pay much mind.

Eventually this sexual tension was almost always present between us. 

The hardest part is that we've always had this exchange of cuddles, hugs and caresses and we started to avoid these things. I missed feeling and touching him a lot, sometimes we couldn't hold on and hugged intensely, these situations usually ended in us almost kissing several times.

A part of me wanted to go all the way, but my  conscience told me it was wrong.

One day I came home and he told me he was going back to his grandparents' house. We ended up kissing intensely, his hands knew almost my entire body and honestly if not or his cell phone ringing, I wouldn't have resisted. That was the sign that we'd better back off for some time.

After that he made the first move but I wasn't ready yet.

Leo: I had been through a lot of s—- and when things got better, at some point, I became aware of her as a woman. I realized that she was extremely attractive, not only for being gorgeous, but for having a beautiful body.

It was as if she had this gravity that attracted me and at various times I kept watching her. Not long after, I noticed that she watched me more often and when I noticed she tried to disguise it.

Ever since we met, we've always had a lot of physical contact. Hugs, caresses, and cuddles were quite common between us and never had any intention other than affection.

The last few months of our coexistence were complicated. At some point we became aware of each other and simple things ended up generating that atmosphere of tension.

For example, since I moved into her house we slept in the same bed almost always cuddling, but we started sleeping apart because whenever we got too close we were uncomfortable with the tension.

But sometimes it was hard, we had this will, this need to touch each other, to feel each other. Sometimes we'd give in but we'd hesitate to take the next step.

I was going crazy with the conflict between my desires and my morals. I wanted that woman to be mine, but she was my birth mother. And all that sexual tension didn't help

The day I packed up my things said I was going back to my grandparents. She asked me why, and I told her she knew the answer.

We stayed in touch and occasionally met. That sexual tension was always present when we met but was also emotional. It was hard when we met and even harder when we were separated.

I got tired of that situation and talked directly to her about it. We wanted the same thing, but the moral aspect was harder for her than for me. We ended up arguing and walked away for a few months.

During that time I tried to move on, had dates with some girls but never felt anything. I wanted her, but I accepted that it wasn't meant to be.

She came to me and we made up, even after months all those feelings were there. She started crying and told me she was dating someone, like she was justifying herself. 

It hurt me a lot, but it was her choice so I did my best to support her.

She said she'd give up fighting what she felt. She moved into my house not long after.

Our first kiss was spontaneous and mutual.  I gave up fighting what I felt first and made the first move.


FME: Can you describe your feelings during that process? How about “the day after”? How did that go? How were you feeling?

Lavinia: This process was difficult. 

I had this moral dilemma between being his birth mother and wanting to have sex with him.

Once we talked and he proposed we try to have a relationship, but I didn't agree and we ended up arguing.

The distance between us only intensified this will, while it became something more sentimental, more romantic.

I tried to move on and get it out of my head, but it was practically impossible not to think about him. I couldn't be interested in anyone, I wanted him but it i thought that was wrong.

We met and made up, I lied when I said I was dating someone. I tried to convince him to try to convince myself and he did his best to support me but I could see that he was quite sad.

I started to wonder why it was wrong if we both wanted the same thing, I wanted so badly to give myself to him, to be with him. And I was sure it was reciprocal. 

I eventually gave up fighting what I felt and went to his house.

As soon as we got in, we couldn't even take off our clothes, so we ripped them apart and that was a long day. Our connection was so intense and so strong that it's hard to try to describe everything I felt because it was something unique. 

The next day was... Joy.

Everything that bothered me or kept me from taking that step was gone. I couldn't part with him for a second. It was probably the happiest day of my life.

Leo: At first it was a rather intense physical attraction. Over time, it became something deeper and more emotional. It was a need.

We got stuck. I wanted to feel her, smell her, breathe the air she was breathing, see her, touch her. It was so strong and I can't describe in words that feeling, that desire, that will. We've had sex all day, practically.

The next day, unlike what we thought, after we went all the way for the first time, there was no guilt or shame. It was all so natural that it was quite comfortable.

I had this hunger of her and no matter how much I had her, it was not enough. It was hard to even split up to work.

It was the happiest moment for me after everything that's happened in my life.


FME: Before this had you ever thought this would be possible or enjoyable; did you have any opinion one way or the other about close genetic relatives or family members being together?

Leo: I was taught it was wrong and forbidden. Immoral. I never had an opinion or thought about it, so when our attraction happened, as much as I wanted it, my morals told me it was wrong.

I've never felt anything, and I haven't had any experience, with any family member.

Lavinia: My parents never told me anything about it, but the topic was usually tied to abuse and other harmful things, so I always thought it was wrong.

I've never experienced this with anyone else.


FME: How do you describe the sex now? Taboo? Natural? Especially erotic? Some people say consanguineous eroticism is inherently kinky, but I have found that for many it doesn't feel kinky.

Lavinia: The sex between us has always been magnificent and our sexual compatibility is perfect.

I've always had this feeling of security and absolute intimacy with him. It's something I've never experienced in my life and I believe our connection is part of it.

About being  inherently kinky: I don't think so.

Leo: It's always been natural.

We like to try new things, so it's usually quite erotic not because of our circumstances but because of the situations and climates we create. I've never experienced anything like it. It's like I'm addicted to her. This connection we have is so unique, in our case it was never kinky because we never had this mother-son relationship, we've always been friends.


FME: How long have you been together now? Are you now more like spouses or family-with-benefits or something else? Do you see each other as mother and son, or lovers?

Leo: This is a marriage. We are spouses and lovers. We’ve been married for ten years, together romantically for twelve years.


FME: Do you literally sleep together?

Lavinia: Always.


FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? What kind of steps, if any, have you had to take to keep your privacy?

Leo: We talked about how we'd make things work. Since we had three families involved, we would treat it just as if we were making up for lost time between us.

For privacy, we avoided very busy places. We'd rather go to more distant places or where we knew there were no relatives around. I kept a room with my clothes and some things for any eventuality. We avoided any contact and even glances when a relative was present.

Lavinia: His father's family ended up suspicious after a few years and called him to talk.

He never told me what he heard that day, but it affected him a lot. In all these years that we've been together we've always been "glued" and that was the only time we've been apart.

I got worried and suggested therapy. He asked me for time. We got over it, but it was the most delicate moment we faced.

He decided to tell his stepmother's parents and I made sure to be with him this time. They had a little difficulty but accepted our relationship.

They really love and care about him, I understood their concern and tried to help them understand that our feelings were real. They were more disappointed with the fact that we hid for so long.

He never asked me or suggested we tell my parents, mainly because he knew that in the past we had problems. I started to feel bad after we talked to his grandparents and set up lunch with my parents. At that time I told them about the nature of our relationship. I wanted to show him that I was willing to do that for us, too.

To our surprise, my parents were quite receptive and shortly after I found out that they went through something like that because they were cousins. Part of their family didn't accept their relationship and they faced rejection.

Apart from our family, our close friends don't know about our connection. Sometimes we've heard some joke that we look like siblings, because we're alike.

Leo: My  father's family became suspicious because we had been living together for a few years and I was always single. One day, my grandparents called me to go to their house alone, and when I arrived, not only them but my uncle and my aunt, who are my father's siblings, were present.

They asked me the nature of our relationship. I was alone at the time and tired of secrecy. I was honest and said we were married a few years.

I had never been and have never been as humiliated as I was that day. I was thankful for being alone in that situation as it was something that affected me so much that it started to affect our marriage.

Of my father's family, only a cousin of whom I have always been close supported us and remains present in our lives.

My childhood friends met my stepmother as my mother, so the ones who knew my birth mother knew her as my girlfriend and wife.


FME: Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Can you describe how that has been? Are there any other disadvantages? Conversely, do you think consanguineous relationships have some advantages and some things better than unrelated lovers, especially between a birth mother and son?

Leo: In our case we never had this bond as mother and child, so it was never a problem for us.

The only and biggest downside that comes to mind is in the case of children, because one of us can't be registered as a parent.

I've never felt anything more intense and profound in my life. I can't imagine feeling it for anyone else. It’s something really unique.

Lavinia: One thing that helps us in this regard is that when I got closer to him, we had a conversation in which I explained my reasons for getting away from him.

He accepted my reasons and I accepted that he only had one mother and that we would be friends. I never tried to act like his mother, I had this big sister attitude.

The downside that comes to mind is in terms of children. If we have a child one of us will not be registered as a relative.

I believe part of our relationship being so special is our bond. I don't know what it's like for others, but between birth mother and son it's really unique.


FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship? What's your reply to those who would say that this is one of you preying on the other?

Lavinia: I don't think anyone chooses who they fall in love with. If both parties are old enough to make their own decisions, people should accept it.

Leo: I don't know if I want to say anything. I mean, look at the state of the world. People are getting more and more selfish. Me/Myself/I. People have lost love for others, they don't lose a second putting themselves in the shoes of others. If someone tells me that they chose to love someone, I will say that the love that person feels is not true. Just see the amount of divorces and infidelity. I feel sorry for those who generalize and feel sorry for those who judge.


FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you?

Lavinia: He is my dear half, I'm not interested in making our love official. it's not something that makes a difference to me.

Leo: Honestly? It doesn't make any difference.


FME: Do you have children together?

Leo: No, but we've been talking about it.

Lavinia: I needed some time to feel comfortable with this idea. We've been talking about it.


FME: What advice do you have for someone who may be experiencing these feelings for a relative or family member, especially a reunited genetic relative?

Leo: It's complicated. As I'm probably a case of Reunion GSA, I'd like to address these people. There's nothing wrong with you and there's nothing to be ashamed of. Don't be selfish and be considerate of who can get hurt by your deeds. Don't be afraid to talk and figure things out together. Be rational and think of a whole.

Lavinia: In the past I was betrayed by someone I loved. The damage was great I had problems with confidence and self-esteem. My only advice is to make sure you're not selfish, if someone's going to get hurt, make the right choice.


FME: What advice do you have for family members and friends who think or know that relatives they know are having these feelings for each other? 

Leo: Waste a few minutes of your precious life and get on their shoes. You'll see that this can happen to anyone.

Lavinia: Don't judge, try to understand things. People don't choose who they love, keep that in mind.


FME: Do you consider yourself consanguinamorous in orientation, or could you be fulfilled in a relationship with someone who isn’t a close relative?

Leo: I don't know how to answer that question, honestly. The truth is, I can't imagine myself without my wife. I don't want anyone else but my wife. I can't imagine feeling everything I feel for her for anyone else and I can't imagine anyone giving me everything she gives me.

Lavinia: I don't know, [consanguinamory as an orientation] is new to me. What I'm sure of is that I can't be satisfied if that person isn't Leo.


FME: Any plans for the future?

Leo: Yes, I want to go to Vegas and have one of those wedding ceremonies. Just the ceremony. Maybe a child.

Lavinia: Maybe have a child?


FME: Anything else to add?

Leo: I appreciate the opportunity to share a little about us. I am absolutely crazy about this woman and after all these years our feelings have gotten even stronger. I would like to wish that everyone who went through this had the opportunity to experience that happiness.

Lavinia: I've read most of the reports at your blog. 

I would like to say that I had never stopped to think about how blessed we are by the simple fact that we live in a country where our relationship is not considered a crime. I'm really sorry for all the people who don't have this opportunity, my best wishes for all of you.

*****

Clearly, these lovers are consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone, and yet they can't even exercise their basic human right to legally marry. They are happy and in love, yet they are denied fundamental rights and treated poorly by people who are supposed to love them. In many places in the world, they can't even be open about their love without risking prosecution!

Why should they be denied their rights? There’s no good reason.We need to recognize that all adults should be free to be with any and all consenting adults as they mutually consent, and part of doing that is adopting relationship rights for all, including full marriage equality sooner rather than later. People are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely.

You can read other interviews I have done here. As you'll see, there are people from all walks of life, around the world, who are in consanguinamorous relationships.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this.

If you want to be interviewed about your "forbidden" relationship, or that of someone you know, connect with me by checking under the "Get Connected" tab there at the top of the page or emailing me at fullmarriageequality at protonmail dot com or see here.

If you know someone who is in a relationship like this, please read this.

Thank you, Leo and Lavinia, for doing this interview! We wish you both well in your
 consanguinamorous intergenerational relationship.