It Has Been a Great Year

It has been quite the year, with much good news again this year and some not-so-good news. There has been so much progress and other things of note that this blog literally hasn't been able to cover everything. This is, after all, a labor of love, and not only do I not ask for monetary donations or feature advertisements, but I wouldn't accept any monetary donations.

If you really want to help, use the various ways in the column on the right and at the end of each posting to spread the message of this blog.

I will also gladly accept written and graphic submissions, provided they are topical and in keeping with the goals and tone of this blog. I will give you credit and a link, but no material or monetary compensation. You can reach me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com. I welcome your comments, so write me even just to say hello.

State by state (and sometimes county by county) the limited same-gender freedom to marry has been sweeping the US. There's a good chance that in 2015 the US Supreme Court will move further towards equality, though of course we want to see the Court rule decisively for nationwide full marriage equality.

More countries are adopting the limited same-gender freedom to marry, which is a good step, and more places are adopting other protections for LGBT people. Serious strides against abuse, especially gender or sexual orientation-based abuse, are being made.

LGBT people have been coming out in areas of professional sports and entertainment (such as County music) there the closet door used to be tightly shut.

Polyamory continues to rise in visibility and more polyamorists are networking and coming out, and more media helpful for people considering or exploring or just wanting to know about polyamory continues to be made available, and hopefully rights and protections will follow.


While we're still seeing prosecutions, there has been small victories in courts for consanguineous lovers and for step relations, and decriminalizing consanguinamory in more places is being discussed more and more. Consaguinamorous themes continue to pop up in pop media.

Progress is definitely being made. We're going to make it happen. We're going to make much of the world safe for, and supportive of, all people regardless of their Gender, Sexuality, and Relationship Diversities (GSRD.)

May the next year be one of equality, love, happiness, health, and prosperity.

A Happy New Year to all!

People Have Interesting Questions

Someone came to this blog by searching…

how do I get my wife to do incest with her brother

For most of the people I’ve interviewed, consanguinamory has been about a deep and strong connection with someone they love, someone they want to be with the rest of their lives. However, there are people who have various fantasies, turn-ons, or fetishes when it comes to consanguineous sex. Someone looking for ideas about how to get their wife to have sex with her brother might find the idea itself stimulating. People who want to see (or at least hear about) their partner being with another person aren't all that rare. That fantasy is a common one, in contrast to people who would never want to think about their partner being with someone else. Also, it isn’t rare for someone to find it arousing to have a threesome with partner and the partner’s sibling of the same gender (for example, how many men fantasize about having sisters/twins?) It is a little less common to want your partner to be with their different-gender sibling.

There might be different reasons someone would want that. Maybe they have their own experiences with siblings or want to, and so they either want their partner to experience the same thing (very strong sense of compersion) or to be open to the idea of them being with their own sibling. After all, if the wife is having sex with her brother then the person who did the search would, in theory, have an easier time negotiating with the wife about being with their own sibling.

Maybe the person who wants this wants the wife’s brother for a threesome experience or ongoing triad, and figures the easiest way to make that happen is to get the wife to start things up with her brother? There’s a chance the person simply wants a threesome with a(nother) male involved and figures the safest person to involve would be the wife’s brother.

So the WHY could be different things, and make no mistake, fantasies are a very different matter than actually doing something.

As far as HOW to make it happen, well, that can be complicated.

An Advocate For at Least Trying Polyamory

University of Cambridge student Katt Parkins gives "5 Reasons Everyone Should Try Polyamory." I'm not someone who thinks everyone will be happier in polyamorous relationships. I do think some people are better off in monogamous relationships and others are better off in no relationship at all. But I did want to share this piece of encouragement anyway, so those considering the possibilities could see what someone else has to say about the positives of at least trying polyamory.

It is good that this started off with pointing out that polyamory can take many forms.

1. Expecting one person to fulfill all of your needs and to never change or grow is unfair 

I think some monogamists do have such a mindset, but others realize that one other person is not going to be everything to them and that other person will change and grow, and they just take that as part of the territory.

3. If you fall in love with more than one person, you are not a freak, and you might not have to choose

I think that is very, very important. You are not a freak if you are in love with more than one person.

Go read the rest if it interests you.

Again, nobody should do anything with their body they don't want to. But if the only reason you don't want to do something is some external pressure, well, maybe that should be questioned.

DebateOut.com Covers Consanguinamory

A journalist by the name of Katie Dupere politely contacted me a little while back to invite me to participate in what has turned into this, a debate about consanguineous sex and relationships at debateout.com. The title is "Falling for Family: Should Consensual Incest Be Legal?"

There in input from Dr. Michael Brown, who gives an anti-equality view. Of course to Brown, all sex other than Christians in a heterosexual closed monogamous nonconsanguineous marriage is wrong, and if I had to guess I'd say his position is primarily based on his religion.

In saying consanguinamory should not be legalized, he says...

You don’t ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.

We have a pretty good idea why it was put up. And we have US states and countries where it is not criminalized and there haven't been problems as a result.

And it is so critically important that family members do not look at each other in a sexualized or romantic way. It opens the door for all kinds of abuse for children.

That's like saying heterosexual marriage opens the door for all kinds of abuse of children. After all, if a man can legally marry a woman, it will be easier for him to legally marry an underage girl, right? Well, no, not when we have other laws about minors and consent and such.

Then he threw in Discredited Argument #18 and statements like this...

There is something sacred within the family. There is something where children must feel safe with parents. Where parents must have a special view of their children as children.

None of that is changed when consensual adult sex is decriminalized.

If kids are raised separately and meet later in life and experience what some call Genetic Sexual Attraction, you really open a Pandora’s box.

So what are the problems? He doesn't say.

Factoring in Visibility

I remember when Roseanne Barr's character kissed Mariel Hemingway's character on network television. And then there was Madonna and Britney Spears kissing on television during a performance. In the first instance, it was part of a larger fictional storyline intended to break down prejudices. In the second, it was part of a live musical performance that was probably there to titillate. Both generated much reaction.

In recent years, the Kardashians (don't worry, that's the last time I'll mention them in this entry) have gotten much publicity for "incestuous" flirting via tweets and their television shows.

I bring these things up because much buzz was generated by contestants on the television talent contest show The X Factor (the British edition, I think), as the sisters had an "incestuous" kiss on-stage. See, for example, this report at dailystar.co.uk by Ash Percival with the headline "X Factor incest shock as sisters Blonde Electra share live lesbian snog" and the teaser intro "THE X Factor final was thrown into an incest controversy earlier tonight as sister double act Blonde Electra shared a kiss live on air."

Recreating Madonna and Britney Spears’ iconic kiss at the MTV VMAs in 2003, Jazzy and Ruby King shared a full-on snog leaving viewers open-mouthed.

But the kiss itself wasn't open-mouthed. See for yourself. Their lips are closed. People who have no sexual intent share kisses like this all of the time in some cultures and subcultures.

 

The story and reactions to it were also to be found at uk.celebrity.yahoo.com in this report by Stephanie Soteriou... 

A Sister Takes Questions on Reddit

Visibility is important. Even anonymous "visibility" is important, especially if it involves telling your story and answering questions in an effective way. Reddit is a place where that can happen. Here's an example where Noveranan did an AMA (Ask Me Anything.) It is titled "I was in an incestuous relationship with my brother."

Between the ages of 15 and 20 I was in a sexual relationship with my brother. You may ask me anything.

• Note that English is my third language. I'll try to keep my responses at least readable, though.

Edit: For a long time I was on the fence on whether I should post this or not. Now I'm really glad I did. The vast majority of you have been very respectful, and it's been great to get a lot of this stuff off my chest. I've talked more about it here over the last 24 hours than I probably have for the last nine years.
Many thanks to all who have participated, and if you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.

That was good to read.

LLment has a simple question...

Online Love: Why the Internet is a Crucial Venue for the LGBT Community

This is a freelance article submitted by Helen Tetlow. Contributing content to this blog is just  one of the ways you can help support full marriage equality.

Online Love: Why the Internet is a Crucial Venue for the LGBT Community

As more and more states across America move towards equal marriage for the LGBT community, without a doubt anyone can observe that the culture around relationships is changing. It may be too slow for some, and too fast for others – but people are beginning to accept that relationships are dynamic and diverse, and even the mainstream media is slowly opening up its eyes to the possibilities, giving a voice to relationships which are excluded from the heteronormative trope. Much of this can be attributed to the rise of LGBT culture on both a commercial and social scale, and inevitably the crucial relationship it holds with technology and the ability of social media to reach out and send a message, while uniting people in their beliefs. But the internet has done its fair share of deeply personal, life-changing events too – not the least of which has brought people together from all backgrounds to enjoy a lifetime of love.

Finding a Soulmate

Meeting individuals over the internet was once strongly stigmatized in western culture, and to a degree it continues to be so today. Indeed, it remains a place to take caution – just like the non-virtual world. Yet now, it is commonly accepted that couples have met over the net, whether it’s through an online dating site or a fan forum where mutual likes have led to happy matchings. From casual sex to lifelong friendships and intimate relationships, the online world has enabled people to find likeness with one another while focusing on personality (that isn’t to say that looks and social status are not capitalized upon, but merely that those seeking personality and character have a better venue to do so than in the non-virtual world to some degree). This also transcends ethnicities, cultures, orientation, class, gender, and national boundaries. For many, it has been the answer to finding that perfect soulmate, whether actively seeking one or not. For the LGBT community, it has been a huge asset where a large number of individuals have sought their partners.

Finding a Voice

Though things are changing, it can be still be difficult for members of the LGBT community to connect with one another. There are a few social situations where this is possible (provided one lives in a fairly cosmopolitan area) – the club scene, the cultural scene (such as literary circles, sports teams, women’s discussion groups etc.) and organizations within the larger community as well as smaller ones like those on the university campus. However, while most of these situations are inclusive, for some individuals they still do not present the same kind of venue in which people feel comfortable meeting someone special. In “mainstream” circles like the workplace and school, people might have a difficult time communicating that they are gay (not that there should be a need to) and finding out whether the person they are interested in (if any) is gay as well. And even once that common denominator is established, there are million other variants to consider before suggesting compatibility.

The online world has changed this immensely. LGBT individuals can meet for casual relationships, company, or a full-on relationship. These exist at an international and regional level, so not only can people enjoy learning about another lifestyle, but connect with people locally as well. Chat rooms and forums have provided another venue in which people can get to know one another, and overall, have a positive impact on people’s lives. People are able to bond over showing support for one another and in vulnerable communities this is vital. The diversity of the online world has expanded to become highly inclusive as well as specific – for instance, there are now supportive groups for LGBT individuals who have suffered abuse, or addiction – which is prevalent in some parts of the community because of the difficult circumstances which many gays face. For many, not only pulling through the recovery process but getting back into a “new norm” or lifestyle can be challenging, and finding someone to connect with who not only understands that process but may be going through it themselves can help that person reach their next milestone.

Now there are many ways in which people can reach out to one another in the online world, and for the LGBT community, it has been the only way for many individuals. As society becomes more accepting, mainstream media more inclusive, and LGBT people more confident, the online world will no longer be the only outlet for seeking a special someone. But it will remain a staple and as the lives and lifestyles of individuals get even busier and people want to cut to the chase and get to know someone with ease. As more and more people outside of the LGBT community also turn to the online world to connect, it’s clear that the internet is not only a place where people can feel solidarity with one another, but a place which is convenient in our fast-paced world.

Reunited and Loving Each Other For Years

If my recollection is correct, this is the fortieth ongoing relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are, by law, denied the freedom to marry and have that marriage treated equally under the law.


The people in interview below are adults, people you might live next to see every day, in a consensual relationship with each other. Yet they face discrimination and prejudice for their love, having to hide the truth. They aren't hurting anyone; why should they have to hide and be denied their rights?


Read the interview below and see for yourself what they have to say. You may think their relationship is interesting, or it might make you uncomfortable, but either way, should they be denied equal access to marriage?



*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your yourself.

Tony: I am a business owner with several offices.

Carla: I also am in the business with Tony.

Marriage Now, Marriage Forever?

Dr. Tammy Nelson wrote a piece found at huffintonpost.com about the current state of marriage and what the future holds for marriage and relationships.

Marriage, up until now, has been defined by five things:
One, being married to one person,

If we're talking about dominant US law. Not if we're talking globally, especially historically.

Two, marriage is between a man and a woman,

Again, in many places, yes.

Three, marriage meant that you were partners for a lifetime,

A lot of people have included that notion in their vows. Average lifespans used to be shorter, marriages were often business deals between families, and most people lived their entire lives in the same rural villages.

Four, marriage was a promise based on integrity as well as a legal contract and,

Pretty much, yes.

Five, marriage meant sexual fidelity to one person; forever.

Not if "fidelity" means "only have sex with." If you mean it was expected they would be ongoing sexual partners, then usually, yes, but that doesn't exclude other sexual partners.

More polyamorous couples are living in openly agreed to multiple partner relationships in this country than can fill the island of Manhattan. And that is only the people that openly identify as 'poly.' Some have this arrangement but do not care to call themselves 'poly' or check off the box when researchers come around to ask who the other partner is that's sleeping in the guest room.

There's something on which we definitely agree.

She goes on to write about divorce and cheating.

In the future, gay marriage will have been legal for decades. More arrangements between couples will include open marriages with sexual agreements, polyamory will be more common and perhaps even polygamy will be visited in the legal system.

Something else on which we agree.

We will judge less on sexual identity and more on how we treat one another.

Let it be so!

But we will always want a primary partner. It is a basic human propensity to fall in love, to have a special person, an "other, " someone with whom we feel a deeper, more spiritual connection.

But could we have this connection with many partners, not just one?

Of course we can.

I suppose there will always be some people who follow the model some people have been trying to force on everyone in the US: Find one stranger of the "opposite sex," and same race, date them, marry them, have kids with them, stay with the same partner for life, living in a "single family" residence. But we are also going to see more people who do not hide or avoid: having a relationship with a close relative, whether that is a genetic relative or step relative; having same-gender relationships; having interracial relationships; having polyamorous relationships, or couple up but swing or swap or have casual threesomes or casual partners; not having kids at all or raising kids with someone who isn't a sexual partner. To each their own. As long as they are all consenting adults, they should be free to have the relationships to which they agree.

Thin Walls Reveal Consanguinamory

Supporters of full marriage equality can help the cause by speaking up for relationship rights for all when the opportunities present themselves. One place where such opportunities can happen is in discussion forums. For example, I found this thread in the forum at womens-health.com. LisaW1991 got things kicked off by writing...

I live in an appartment next door to nice guy who's going to college. He has lived there for almost a year. Friendly guy who is single. He doesn't appear to have steady GF, but he does bring home girls occasionally and has sex. The walls are pretty thin, and I can hear them having sex. One girl that has been there several times has been his sister, and everytime she stays the weekend, its clear they have sex several times. I've met her and talked to her down at the pool, and they seem like an affectionate couple when are out in public, but he always introduces her to everyone as his sister.

Its really none of my business so I have not said anything to him about hearing them have sex through the wall, but sometimes I wonder if I should just so he knows. I've not said anything because hearing others have sex does not bother me, and I don't want make him feel he needs to hold back.

Thankfully, she didn't express prejudice about the situation, like we have seen with like situations before. Yes, we have seen people asking about hearing their sibling neighbors make love and wondering what to do.

Polygamy is Part of Marriage Equality

Someone named joels247 at thestudentroom.co.uk asked, "Are you a 'bigot' if you oppose polygamous marriage?" My answer is that some people oppose this freedom to marry because of bigotry. Some do so out of ignorance, and once they are informed, they may drop opposition or cling to bigotry.


Dougie93 is an ally...

In my personal opinion marriage is not about religion, it's not about the state and it's not about society - they don't matter - marriage is about the union of two (or more) people who love each other. That's what matters. If I want to marry a guy then I should be able to marry a guy - no quibble. I'm a human. I love him. Is it illegal to be gay? No? Okay Let me marry him.


Same case for polygamy - do those three people love each other, yes? Is it illegal to love more than one person? Nope (Polygamy marriages from abroad are recognised by the state) - Let them marry. Let them be happy.

najinaji is an ally, too...

In response to your question, I do believe that opposing anything that is no one else's business is biogtry. If three or more people all wish to marry each other, I don't see what is so objectionable about that.

Any excuse I saw offered to justify the denial of the polygamous freedom to marry used one of the Discredited Arguments. Once people have been informed and considered the matter away from knee-jerk reactions, they realize there is no good reason to deny the polygamous freedom to marry as part of full marriage equality.

Another Brother Leaves a Comment

Anonymous left a comment at the end on one of our FAQ postings, the one about how common it is for people to have consanguinamorous experiences.

It's another example of how siblings can be kind and loving to each other, instead of being rivals and fighting or ignoring each others or being abusive towards each other.


It gets a little explicit so I'm putting a break here.

Thanksgiving Day in US

Thanksgiving Day is a huge holiday in the US, centered mainly around a special family meal. In case you haven't noticed, Americans like to eat a lot. It is always on a Thursday, with Friday typically being a holiday as well. It is considered the busiest travel time in the US. I’m not sure why it is busier than Christmas. Probably because a lot of people throw in New Year’s Eve/Day with Christmas and schools are out for at least two weeks (some for over a month.) So, the travel is spread out over a longer period of time when it comes to Christmas. In addition, with Christmas, gift-giving is a central tradition, and it is easier to stay home and ship presents. For Thanksgiving, people just bring themselves, any luggage they need, and perhaps a dish or two.

Because Thanksgiving is considered to specifically be about family togetherness, it can be a painful time for those who have been rejected by their family because of their gender identity, sexual orientation, or choice in patner(s). Some LGBT people, poly people, and those in consanguineous, intergenerational, or interracial relationships are reminded every year that even their own family hates them.

Some people make the best of this and plan a Thanksgiving meal with friends. I throw out a special “good for you” to anyone who hosts such a meal this holiday. Keep up the good work. I think such gatherings are much more enjoyable anyway.

But I also have words for anyone who has driven away or banned someone in their family because of that other family member’s identity, orientation or partner(s): Shame on you. You don’t have to like your family member’s sexuality or how they live. But you should reach out to them and support them instead of driving them away. Every person at that table does things you don’t like. Why single out a family member for punishment because of who they love? If your family member has a partner whose family is more accepting, guess who is going to win? Guess who is going to get to play with any grandkids/nieces/nephews? Not you.

If you can’t go “home” for Thanksgiving and you are feeling down and you haven’t managed to make plans with friends, consider hosting your own Thanksgiving and invite some friends. Or, volunteer at a homeless shelter or some other charity location that will be helping people on Thursday. Don’t allow depression to take hold. You can find a place where you will be welcomed.

This Thanksgiving, in addition to those I love, I’m especially thankful for Linda, Melissa, and Matthew, who inspired this blog, and all of you who read this blog and especially those of you who leave comments or email me. I’m also thankful for everyone who is moving forward the right for all adults to be themselves and share love, sex, residence, and marriage.

What are you thankful for? Can you go home for Thanksgiving? Do you host? You are welcome to leave your comments, as always.

See my Advice to Family and Friends

Siblings Helping Siblings

Someone I'll call "John" reached out to me via email...

Hi. I'm not really sure what to say so I'll be blunt and honest. I've had a incestuous experience. It was a one time thing with my sister. Neither of us feel we did anything wrong, we both enjoyed it. We didn't have children or continue with a life long affair, just kids having fun. If anything from my experience can help to expand peoples minds in regard to incest then I would like to share (anonymously). Please reply if you want to hear my story.

I responded and John wrote back to explain...

We Get Hate Mail

We get a lot of supportive and thankful comments here. We also get some hateful comments left here, and some of them I don't publish either because they don't even attempt to contribute anything to the discussion or because of the words used. If the reason is the latter, I may publish a comment in edited form, as I'm doing here.

Someone left a comment on this very popular entry about a media depiction of a loving relationship initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction.

This is actually f---ing sick.

One of the great things about everyone having equal rights is that if you don't want to have a relationship like that, you don't have to. And if someone finds your relationship to be sick, they can't stop you.

For all of you who are congratulating them wtf is wrong with you?

It's called... being happy for other people. Try it sometime?

He is her father!

Genetically, yes. But he didn't raise her. So what is the point, either way? Our objecting person doesn't explain what the actual problem is.

That's f---ing beyond disgusting.

Again, then don't do it. See Discredited Argument #1.

I'm gay, and marriage 'equality' make me sick to feel that I should be categorized in the same rank as these two sick people. Ew.

Sad. There are people who say the very same thing about gays. They don't want them considered to be equal to heterosexuals.

Each to their own, yes.

Oh, good, something reasonable.

Why did they have to admit it to everyone?

Sadly, there are people who say the same thing about LGBT people, including some LGBT people. Coming out of the closet should, in general, is a choice that should be made by the individuals.

Comments like this make me appreciate solidarity all the more.

Whether you or I or anyone else likes any given orientation or relationship (or is disgusted), we should affirm that an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (or any of those without the others) with any and all consenting adults.

A Relevant Question at GirlsAskGuys

Topics relevant to this blog get discussed at girlsaskguys.com. Don't let the name fool you. Anyone can answer the questions and anyone can ask them, too. Someone anonymous, now between the ages of 18 and 24, asked this...

so obviously i can't go into much detail about this but basically no penetration and it was... my own brother

i was less than 10 years old and so was he but he was too curious about the female body, but like i said no penetration

i didn't fully understand at the time what was going on at the time, but i knew it was wrong.

my question is, how does incest (or something close to it) affect you later on in life? (im still a virgin btw, i mean how does it affect you psychologically, socially... etc)
and can the damage (if any) be reversed?

im repulsed by it, but i dont feel like its affecting me right now... actually I don't know how i feel at all..

and no im not that catfish, thats why i didn't go into details, i just want some answers because i dont have anyone to talk to about this and i can't go to a psychologist. thank you 

Per my questions, she clarified...

i can't remember exactly but less than 10 years old and there's a year age difference between us
and no wasn't forced or anything

With only a year's age difference and no coercion, this is what most therapists would call exploration, not abuse. She didn't say if her brother seemed maladjusted (I would think she would have) but obviously it is something that has troubled her, but that's likely to external shaming.

Accept That Your Grown Children Are Adults

Emily Yoffe's Dear Prudence column got a polyamory question. Stuck in the Middle With Him wrote... [I'm bumping this up because it is as relevant as ever as this can happen any time of the year.]

Our daughter "Amanda" lives in another state and has been married to "Jacob" for several years. Theirs is an open relationship, and I have always known that. My husband, however has kept his head in the sand regarding this. My daughter has a boyfriend, "Tom,” whom Jacob knows about and has a great friendship with. They are all planning to come to our home this Christmas, but my husband insists that Tom (who has visited us previously) is not welcome. Do I tell our daughter, son-in-law, and daughter's boyfriend to make other holiday plans? My opinion is that they are all consenting adults, there are no children involved, and always behave appropriately in public.

The letter writer's husband is being a jerk. The letter writer sounds like a reasonable person. I would be interested in knowing if they have any other children, and if the non-spousal partners and friends of those children are also banned? I would also be interested in knowing how Jacob and Tom's families are about the situation. Maybe Amanda, Jacob, and Tom should go to see them for the holidays? Or they can host their own holiday get-togethers and invite all who will come?

Yoffe's reply...

Perhaps a generation from now many families will be having a very polyamorous Christmas. But we aren’t there yet. I support your conclusion that your daughter and the men in her life are consenting adults and as long as they behave with decorum, what they do in private is none of your business. But they are also open about their open relationship, so I can understand your husband’s point of view that he attended Amanda’s wedding to Jacob, where she vowed to forsake all others, including every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

Not everyone makes that vow, and not everyone who makes that vow means that they will have no involvement whatsoever with anyone else. Also, agreements are mutually modified all of the time, and if Amanda and Jacob mutually agreed to their situation, they that's all that should matter.

Suggest this year she come only with Jacob. Surely she knows there are simply occasions when she must make a choice about which man to bring.

Hmm. Tom is part of Amanda's life. This is a rejection of Amanda's autonomy over her own sexuality and social life, and a rejection of Jacob as well, since he agreed to this. Parents aren't always going to like the decisions their adult children make, but those grown children are going to live their own lives, and their parents can either be a part of it or not.

Roger E. Olson Asks About Solidarity

Someone asked me for my thoughts on challenge posed by Roger E. Olson that I found here at patheos.com. Olson has a question for supporters of the same-gender freedom to marry...

What purely rational or religious-based reasons can be given for continuing to criminalize “plural marriage” or to deny marriage licenses to groups?

Now, just to stave off an avalanche or even a trickle of comments based on misunderstanding. I am not here discussing the ethics of gay marriage, so do not respond as if I were. I am only asking advocates of gay marriage how they would argue against, if at all, legal plural marriage. And by “plural marriage” here I am only talking about arrangements where all the parties to it are knowledgeable, free adults and where there is no abuse or coercion.

He asks again...

What ethical or legal arguments would you, who advocate and support gay marriage, give for continuing to prohibit plural marriage?

He goes for full marriage equality by asking...

Then, let’s take it a step further. Image a biological brother and sister who wish to be legally married. One or both of them will undergo voluntary sterilization to avoid the possibility of having children (who might have serious birth defects as a result). They can prove to the government that they cannot have biological children, but they plan to adopt. To those who advocate and defend gay marriage, which is the same as saying redefine marriage from its traditional definition, what rational or purely religious arguments can you give for prohibiting such a marriage? If such a couple sues for a marriage license, what reasoning should a judge use (if at all) to deny their claim?

As a supporter of the same-gender freedom to marry, my answer is that I don't want any adults to be prohibited from marrying. I support full marriage equality. I don't have an invisible asterisk. There is no good reason to deny full marriage equality.

Olson is asking a good question that I hope will encourage solidarity. We should not only support the same-gender freedom to marry, but the polygamous freedom to marry and the consanguineous freedom to marry, which are all part of full marriage equality. Let's not throw anyone under the bus. Equality is not something to be feared.

Moms Speak Up on Consanguinamory

Topics relevant to this blog pop up in various discussion venues, such as cafemom.com, and sometimes the discussions aren't deleted before I find them. Here's some of what I found over there earlier today.

Anonymous  asked "Do you think incest should be illegal? If it's between two consenting adults, do you think it should be against the law? Why or why not?"

It is the position of this blog that an adult should be free to be with any and all consenting adults, regardless of gender, number, or relation, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. What do the moms say?

Mom-to-2kids chimed in as an ally...

Another Example of How Full Marriage Equality Helps All

This blog has long recognized that full marriage equality is something that will help everyone, including people who are already in monogamous heterosexual marriages. In an example provided by Kristen Mark, Ph.D., M.P.H. at psychologytoday.com, we see that polyamory can help monogamous people, but that can happen most of all if polyamory isn't kept in the shadows and discriminated against.

We're all better off with full marriage equality and relationship rights for all adults. People can seek the relationships they want the most without being hindered by criminalization or discriminatory laws, and we can learn from each other.

Even More Kardashian Controversy

Our apologies if you don't want to read about the Kardashians. We have noted before, including recently, that the Kardashians continue to flirt with consanguinamorous themes and the genre of media following them continues to make a big deal about it. [Bumping up because they're doing this again.]

For example, see this report with the headline "Incestuous Kardashian kiss!"...

Evan Agostini/Invision/AP

Kim Kardashian

Brody Jenner claims that his brother Brandon Jenner and stepsister Kim Kardashian once shared a kiss. 

Brody and Brandon Jenner are stepbrothers to
Kim Kardashian, so it wouldn't be incestuous in the biological sense.

The 30-year-old reality star blurted out the shocking news during episode of 'Keeping Up with the Kardashians' after he was being teased for seeing Kim pose in a barely-there outfit.

Kim's mother Kris Jenner said: "I feel like Brody is crushing on Kim. I think you've had a crush since you were seven years old."

That wouldn't be unusual. It happens with stepsiblings all of the time.

Brody denied the suggestions and was quick to hit back with a surprising accusation of his own, turning the heat on his elder brother Brandon.

Pointing to his sibling, he said: "That was him and Kim! You're forgetting that. They kissed back in the day."

Yes, stepsiblings have crushes, infatuations, love, kisses, and more. I'd like to see television shows stop treating this subject like it is some sort of strange or shameful thing.

Brothers Marry Best Friends and It Goes Polyamorous

More than one Friend of Full Marriage Equality has called my attention to this, which I'd already seen and planned to talk about. So here it is. It is the most recent Dan Savage column. It is the last letter that is of most interest to this blog.

My brother and I married two incredible women.

Each? No. Just one each.

Our wives were good friends before we started dating them. My brother has always been my best friend, so the four of us spend a lot of time together.

So far, so good. Great, actually.

Recently, a couple of drinks turned into a bunch, and then my wife and sister-in-law started making out.

No problem there! (Unless, of course, they're sticking with strict monogamy, which they aren't.)

Then they f---ed. It was the hottest thing I've ever seen. We ended up pairing off with our respective partners and having sex in the same room. The next morning, the same thing happened again—wives f---ed each other, we watched, then we f---ed our wives in front of each other—and now my wife tells me that she and her friend would like to date each other. The group sessions would continue. (But no wife swapping: MW sex between husband and wife only!) Everyone seems onboard.

Then what's the problem? Or is this just a chance to bask in the enjoyment?

What Searches Bring People Here

People find this blog through all sorts of paths. I find some of the search phrases that bring people here interesting. In the past day or so, someone found this blog through these three search phrases.

does siblings more likely to have sex if in a nude family

With questions like this, I like to remind people that nudity and sex are two different things. It is possible to have sex while being fully clothed, and it is possible to be nude around others without having sex. This happens all of the time.

That being said, it may be that siblings in naturist families are more likely to have sex. I'm guessing this would be not due to the nudity, but because I expect that there is significant overlap between families more open and comfortable about their bodies and families where sexual exploration isn't discouraged. This isn't to say that all naturist families would be accepting of sibling consanguinamory, as not all families are naturists for the same reasons.

As far as I know, there is no statistical data showing that sibling sex is more likely in naturist families than the general population.

what is the percentage of brother sister incest in divorce families

Now there may be some statistical information about this, but I suspect it might be about assault rather than consanguinamory. When it comes to consanguinamory, I would guess that divorce in and of itself is a less relevant factor than things like how much and how closely siblings are supervised. There are two-parent families with teenagers in which both parents are working full-time and then some, leaving the teen siblings home with each other and nobody else. On the other hand, there are divorced parents who closely supervise their teenagers. So divorce in and of itself probably isn't much of an indicator.

If, on the other hand, we're talking about adult siblings who have been through divorces themselves, then I think there is some likelihood that siblings in those situations either initiate or resume a sexual relationship, if for no other reason than their sibling is a "safe" partner after a painful experience of divorce.

is incest between two middle aged adults illegal in the uk

Yes, unfortunately. See here for more, and follow the links.

Latest Update on Zambia Prosecution of Consenting Adults

We've been following the case of two lovers in Zambia who have been subject to an hateful prosecution for the "crime" of loving each other. According to this report at lusakatimes.com, the pair has been convicted and face a minimum of twenty years in prison. 

ext size Teen's Disappearance Helps Unravel Large-Scale, Incestuous Sex Ring Updated: Monday, November 3 2014, 04:30 PM CST BAY MINETTE, Ala. (AP) -- By most accounts, 19-year-old Brittney Wood was with uncle Donnie Holland the night of May 30, 2012, the last time anyone saw her. Holland - who was under investigation for horrific sex crimes at the time - died from a bullet within days in what was ruled a suicide. The investigation that followed has publicly unraveled what authorities describe as a dark, twisted tale of perversion in the working-class neighborhoods and piney backwoods of coastal Alabama. Eight of Woods' adult relatives and three family friends have been charged with dozens of felonies in two counties as the alleged members of an incestuous ring that authorities say shared children for group sex. Holland was the leader, prosecutors say, of what has been described as the largest sex ring ever uncovered in Alabama. Wood was a victim and likely key witness. "Brittney could have been huge," said prosecutor Teresa Heinz. "She could have corroborated so many things." Wood is presumed dead, but authorities haven't found a trace of her and no one is charged in her disappearance. Even without Wood to testify, two of her uncles and an older brother already have pleaded guilty to sex charges, and jurors this month convicted a friend of Holland's of multiple sex charges in the first trial. Others - including the missing teen's mother, Chessie Wood, and two aunts - await trial. Chessie Wood denies committing any crime, but says some of her closest relatives are guilty of abusing children, including of abusing her daughter. "There are innocent people in this and there are guilty people in this," Wood, 39, said in an interview. "I don't know how the judicial system is going to figure it all out because they're not the sharpest tools in the shed." Chessie Wood, accused of having sex with a young female relative, said she had no idea what was going on in the family until after her daughter's disappearance. "The No. 1 thing here is to find Brittney. The No. 2 thing is to get all these sick (people) off the streets," she said. Authorities are making plea-bargain offers and getting ready for more trials, but questions persist. Perhaps most troubling, why didn't child welfare workers pursue charges following what prosecutors describe as multiple complaints about sexual abuse within the family going back at least six years? "You'd be surprised how many of them had prior allegations. Nothing happened," said Heinz, an assistant district attorney in Baldwin County. "You have to wonder what wouldn't have happened to these children if something had been done. And Brittney might still be alive." The case is so big officials don't know exactly how many kids inside and outside the family might have been victimized; estimates range from 11 to 16 children who were as young as 3 or 4 when they were first molested or made to watch adult relatives during drug-fueled orgies. The children of the suspects have all been placed in foster care or with relatives who weren't involved in the crimes. Brittney Wood isn't the alleged victim in any of the cases filed so far; each involved other young people, mostly within her family. But the investigation mushroomed only after she was reported missing and her uncle Donnie had died. Authorities believe group sex and child sexual abuse went on for three generations in two families that merged when Holland married Wendy Wood, Chessie Woods' sister. "Donnie was the manager. He'd say, 'I've got this child and this adult, come on over,'" said Mobile County Assistant District Attorney Nicki Patterson. Brittney Wood, meanwhile, led a life that was troubled long before folks on the Alabama coast came to know her smile because of missing persons fliers posted in store windows and shared on social media. The single mother of a daughter born when she was 17, Wood was molested as a child by a step-grandfather who went to prison for the crime, said Patterson. Before she went missing, Patterson said, Wood was using drugs and had a gun for personal protection while bouncing between relatives' homes; others often cared for her daughter. A relative reported Holland for allegedly abusing one of the family girls in February 2012, authorities said, and word spread through the clan. Private Facebook messages provided to The Associated Press by Stephanie Hanke, Brittney Wood's stepmother, show that a female relative informed Wood about being raped by three male relatives on May 27, just three days before Wood vanished. The night of the disappearance, cellphone records and witness accounts indicate Wood left west Mobile with Holland and crossed Mobile Bay into Baldwin County, where Holland was found two days later inside his SUV by his wife and one of her friends. He had been shot in the rear of his head behind an ear, which authorities considered an odd spot for a self-inflicted wound. Holland was scheduled to be questioned about allegations of sexual abuse the very day he was found in the car on an isolated dirt road. Wood's cellphone battery was in the vehicle with Holland, but there was no sign of the teen. Her gun was there as well, it was the only gun in the car. Holland never regained consciousness and died several days later. After Holland died, relatives and police wondered about Wood. "We didn't even realize she was missing until after they found him shot," said Hanke. Searches for the teen began and the sex abuse probe picked up, too. Two of Woods's uncles, Dustin Kent and Scott Wood, were arrested within three weeks and later pleaded guilty to rape and sodomy. Aunts and family friends were eventually charged. This month, family friend Billy Brownlee, 50, was convicted in Baldwin County on charges of sexually abusing a girl in the Holland family when she was about 12. Brownlee claimed Donnie Holland forced him into the acts against his will, but jurors needed only 20 minutes to return a guilty verdict. Donnie Holland's 35-year-old wife, Wendy, is set for trial in early December in what could be a key prosecution. Court records show she has pleaded not guilty, and Heinz said she shows no interest in a plea agreement. Still, authorities wonder how child sexual abuse could go on for years between so many people without anyone being charged until 2012. One girl accused an uncle of sexually abusing her as early as 2008, Heinz said, but welfare workers found the complaint unsubstantiated. "You look at these reports and wonder, 'Why? How did it not go anywhere?'" said Heinz. Barry Spear, a spokesman for the Alabama Department of Human Resources, said privacy statutes prevent the agency from commenting. "I can't even say whether we're had any involvement with this family at all," Spear said.

Read More at: http://www.keyetv.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/teens-disappearance-helps-unravel-largescale-incestuous-sex-ring-21964.shtml

text size Teen's Disappearance Helps Unravel Large-Scale, Incestuous Sex Ring Updated: Monday, November 3 2014, 04:30 PM CST BAY MINETTE, Ala. (AP) -- By most accounts, 19-year-old Brittney Wood was with uncle Donnie Holland the night of May 30, 2012, the last time anyone saw her. Holland - who was under investigation for horrific sex crimes at the time - died from a bullet within days in what was ruled a suicide. The investigation that followed has publicly unraveled what authorities describe as a dark, twisted tale of perversion in the working-class neighborhoods and piney backwoods of coastal Alabama. Eight of Woods' adult relatives and three family friends have been charged with dozens of felonies in two counties as the alleged members of an incestuous ring that authorities say shared children for group sex. Holland was the leader, prosecutors say, of what has been described as the largest sex ring ever uncovered in Alabama. Wood was a victim and likely key witness. "Brittney could have been huge," said prosecutor Teresa Heinz. "She could have corroborated so many things." Wood is presumed dead, but authorities haven't found a trace of her and no one is charged in her disappearance. Even without Wood to testify, two of her uncles and an older brother already have pleaded guilty to sex charges, and jurors this month convicted a friend of Holland's of multiple sex charges in the first trial. Others - including the missing teen's mother, Chessie Wood, and two aunts - await trial. Chessie Wood denies committing any crime, but says some of her closest relatives are guilty of abusing children, including of abusing her daughter. "There are innocent people in this and there are guilty people in this," Wood, 39, said in an interview. "I don't know how the judicial system is going to figure it all out because they're not the sharpest tools in the shed." Chessie Wood, accused of having sex with a young female relative, said she had no idea what was going on in the family until after her daughter's disappearance. "The No. 1 thing here is to find Brittney. The No. 2 thing is to get all these sick (people) off the streets," she said. Authorities are making plea-bargain offers and getting ready for more trials, but questions persist. Perhaps most troubling, why didn't child welfare workers pursue charges following what prosecutors describe as multiple complaints about sexual abuse within the family going back at least six years? "You'd be surprised how many of them had prior allegations. Nothing happened," said Heinz, an assistant district attorney in Baldwin County. "You have to wonder what wouldn't have happened to these children if something had been done. And Brittney might still be alive." The case is so big officials don't know exactly how many kids inside and outside the family might have been victimized; estimates range from 11 to 16 children who were as young as 3 or 4 when they were first molested or made to watch adult relatives during drug-fueled orgies. The children of the suspects have all been placed in foster care or with relatives who weren't involved in the crimes. Brittney Wood isn't the alleged victim in any of the cases filed so far; each involved other young people, mostly within her family. But the investigation mushroomed only after she was reported missing and her uncle Donnie had died. Authorities believe group sex and child sexual abuse went on for three generations in two families that merged when Holland married Wendy Wood, Chessie Woods' sister. "Donnie was the manager. He'd say, 'I've got this child and this adult, come on over,'" said Mobile County Assistant District Attorney Nicki Patterson. Brittney Wood, meanwhile, led a life that was troubled long before folks on the Alabama coast came to know her smile because of missing persons fliers posted in store windows and shared on social media. The single mother of a daughter born when she was 17, Wood was molested as a child by a step-grandfather who went to prison for the crime, said Patterson. Before she went missing, Patterson said, Wood was using drugs and had a gun for personal protection while bouncing between relatives' homes; others often cared for her daughter. A relative reported Holland for allegedly abusing one of the family girls in February 2012, authorities said, and word spread through the clan. Private Facebook messages provided to The Associated Press by Stephanie Hanke, Brittney Wood's stepmother, show that a female relative informed Wood about being raped by three male relatives on May 27, just three days before Wood vanished. The night of the disappearance, cellphone records and witness accounts indicate Wood left west Mobile with Holland and crossed Mobile Bay into Baldwin County, where Holland was found two days later inside his SUV by his wife and one of her friends. He had been shot in the rear of his head behind an ear, which authorities considered an odd spot for a self-inflicted wound. Holland was scheduled to be questioned about allegations of sexual abuse the very day he was found in the car on an isolated dirt road. Wood's cellphone battery was in the vehicle with Holland, but there was no sign of the teen. Her gun was there as well, it was the only gun in the car. Holland never regained consciousness and died several days later. After Holland died, relatives and police wondered about Wood. "We didn't even realize she was missing until after they found him shot," said Hanke. Searches for the teen began and the sex abuse probe picked up, too. Two of Woods's uncles, Dustin Kent and Scott Wood, were arrested within three weeks and later pleaded guilty to rape and sodomy. Aunts and family friends were eventually charged. This month, family friend Billy Brownlee, 50, was convicted in Baldwin County on charges of sexually abusing a girl in the Holland family when she was about 12. Brownlee claimed Donnie Holland forced him into the acts against his will, but jurors needed only 20 minutes to return a guilty verdict. Donnie Holland's 35-year-old wife, Wendy, is set for trial in early December in what could be a key prosecution. Court records show she has pleaded not guilty, and Heinz said she shows no interest in a plea agreement. Still, authorities wonder how child sexual abuse could go on for years between so many people without anyone being charged until 2012. One girl accused an uncle of sexually abusing her as early as 2008, Heinz said, but welfare workers found the complaint unsubstantiated. "You look at these reports and wonder, 'Why? How did it not go anywhere?'" said Heinz. Barry Spear, a spokesman for the Alabama Department of Human Resources, said privacy statutes prevent the agency from commenting. "I can't even say whether we're had any involvement with this family at all," Spear said.

Read More at: http://www.keyetv.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/teens-disappearance-helps-unravel-largescale-incestuous-sex-ring-21964.shtml

---

 Kabwe Principal Resident Magistrate John Mbuzi has convicted and committed brother and sister facing sex charges to Kabwe High Court for sentence.

Mr Mbuzi said it was undisputable that Maureen and Aaron Musonda where living as husband and wife despite knowing very well that they where siblings.

So what?

Particulars of the offence are that Aaron Musonda on dates unknown but between December, 2013 and February 27, 2014 in Kabwe knowing Maureen Musonda was his sister had unlawful carnal knowledge of her.In the second count incest by female particulars of the offence are that Maureen on dates unknown but between December 1, 2013 and February 27, 2014 in Kabwe knowing Aaron to be her brother permitted him to have unlawful carnal knowledge of her.

Still no mention of any victim. Because there isn't one. This shouldn't be crime.

Another report at zambia.news24.com....

The offence against the two carries a minimum sentence of 20 years.

The couple has since been remanded to custody and are currently awaiting sentencing during their next appearance in the Kabwe High Court.

Neither of them have hurt anyone. They're not a threat to anyone. If they are, in fact, genetically related, they are half siblings who did not grow up together. This whole prosecution was outrageous and prison for any length of time is an injustice, but twenty years? The court should do the right thing and set aside the conviction and set them free, and apologize. The only reason they should have to be in a courtroom is to get married.

People in consanguinamorous relationships need to remember to protect themselves.

One Way People Start Learning About Polyamory

There's an interesting blog called "The unveiling of a man the soul of a woman" and there was a post with the title of "Getting acquainted with polyamory" that caught our eye here at FME.

I didn't quite know how to feel when I unintentionally found myself at one end of a polyamorous relationship. I was startled, to say the least, although I did not quite understand why. Don't get me wrong, I have, for a long time, firmly believed that loving, consensual relationships of any shape or form should be accepted and welcomed in society. But at the same time, it was an unexpected surprise to be told by someone I had just started seeing that he had a girlfriend.

It is very important for people who will be expecting monogamy or polyamory to explain that early on, even if you're not at the point you know you'll want an ongoing relationship with this specific person. For someone willing to be in a polyamorous relationship with someone but not with a cheater, it then becomes important to verify that the person you're dating is not hiding that from their current partner(s).

Amidst my confusion, I felt the need to tell a few friends about how I was now involved in a polyamorous relationship. For the most part, the responses were neutral, if not supportive. But one of my friend's responses in particular stood out from the rest.

"That's messed up," my friend said abruptly, after sharing my experience with him.

"Not when there is consent on all ends of the relationship," I argued.

"Nah, it's still messed up."

My friend's strong reaction to polyamory – or more crucially, his reaction to a so-called deviant relationship form – spoke to a broader issue of how some forms of love and relationship structures are valued more and seen as more legitimate in society at-large.

Polyamory is gaining ground, though.

People who partake in more than one committed relationship at once are largely nonexistent in mainstream media.

Yes. But there are more and more representations, which is good.

In order to clear up these misconceptions, and to learn more about polyamory, I interviewed two people who identify as polyamorous: Jocelyn Beaudet, a student at Concordia University, and Jane*, a student in U1 at McGill, studying linguistics and Sexual Diversity Studies. Each person I spoke with helped me clear up misconceptions of polyamory that run rampant in our society. They shared their experiences of polyamorous relationships, and the difficulties they've encountered in a society where monogamy is understood as the only natural way that intimate relationships should form.

Click through to read it all.

It is good to see more and more people giving basic explanations and examples of polyamory, just as it is good to see more and more resources for people in polyamorous relationships and families.

Election Day in the US

Tomorrow is Election Day in the US.

It's a "midterm" election, meaning we are almost halfway through this Presidential term, and as such we are not voting for President, but we are voting:

1) To elect about 1/3rd of our Senate

2) To elect our entire House of Representativea

3) To elect Governors in some states.

4) For various state and local offices and in some states, on some laws.

This blog is wont tell you who should get your vote, other than to encourage you to support those who are most supportive of marriage equality.

New York Moves Closer to Full Marriage Equality

A Friend of Lily bought to my attention this Reuters report at yahoo.com by Daniel Wiessner…

Nearly a century after the same court annulled a marriage between an uncle and his half-niece, New York's top court said on Tuesday that a woman's union with her half-uncle was lawful.

It’s progress, no matter how small.

U.S. immigration officials in 2007 said Vietnamese citizen Huyen Nguyen's marriage in 2000 to her mother's half-brother, U.S. citizen Vu Truong, was void and sought to deport her. A federal appeals court asked the New York Court of Appeals to decide whether such marriages were lawful.

Nguyen was aged 19 and Truong was 24 when they got married.

The U.S. Justice Department claimed an 1893 state law that bars marriages between "a brother and sister of either the whole or the half blood," as well as "uncles and nieces or aunts and nephews," applied to Nguyen and Truong.

But it doesn’t specify half-uncles or half-aunts. It also doesn’t specify that a brother can’t marry a brother or a sister a sister or an uncle a nephew or an aunt a niece, although other laws may apply. We touched on these topics recently here.

According to court documents, Maine is the only state that expressly allows marriages between uncles and nieces or aunts and nephews. Courts in four states, including Kansas and Missouri, have upheld such marriages, while about 30 states have banned them.

The case is Huyen Nguyen v. Eric Holder, New York State Court of Appeals, No. 146.

See this map from The Final Manifesto. We need to get rid of the ridiculous patchwork of which adults are going to have which rights in different states and have nationwide full marriage equality so that an adult is free to marry any and all consenting adults.

Congrats to the couple and all who supported and represented them!