Beautiful Woman Denied the Right to Marry the Father of Her Children

"lilsis" is a beautiful woman and a mother. She’s deeply in love with the father of her children, but not only are they currently denied their right to marry, but they have to hide their love for each other or risk prosecution and having their children taken away.

Read this interview and ask yourself if there is one good reason their rights should be denied.

*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about your background and who you are.

lilsis: I'm a woman living in the UK. I was fostered from a very young age - not sure of the reasons behind this, but I know my mother couldn't cope and Social Services became involved fairly early on. I was shipped around with my older sister for a few years until we were eventually officially fostered together with permanent foster parents (I was 6 and she was 9). My sister was raised for a short period of time with our older sister, but I never was. We were aware, however, of the existence of both our older sister and our brother, who was a year older than me. Throughout the period we were fostered, there was infrequent contact with our birth mother, though none with our father. Our brother had been allowed to go and live with our birth mother, but was very rarely present during our visits. I did not have a sibling relationship with him at any point.

I eventually married and had three children, but the marriage was not a particularly happy one. We stayed together mainly for financial reasons.


FME: How were you reunited with your brother?

I tried to maintain contact with my sister, but there was no contact with either my older sister or brother throughout any of my teenage years or adult life. I eventually made contact with my sister (the one I was raised with) when my daughter was around 4 months old and we decided to maintain contact. It was during one of these visits that I met my brother, who she had been in touch with (without telling me).


FME: How did that go?

There was an immediate spark, which utterly confused me. Upon meeting him for the first time, I felt like I was meeting a boyfriend, which disconcerted me somewhat but did not feel wrong. We quickly found that we had similar interests and became very close very quickly. I maintained contact with him once I went home by phone and msn, but we still did not feel like siblings. I felt like I was in the throes of a new relationship. We communicated every day for a few months, meeting up in person whenever we could (he lived several hundred miles away). At one of these visits, we consummated our relationship. We had talked about this very vaguely before this, but it took us both by surprise when it happened. Even so, it was something we both wanted and did not feel wrong at all - in fact, it felt like it was meant to be.


FME: Were you aware of Genetic Sexual Attraction before this happened?

Neither of us had ever heard of GSA before our meeting and I only found it by accident when I started looking it up on the Internet afterwards. I was kind of relieved to find that there were others out there in the same situation.


FME: What kind of relationship do you have now?

We are in an exclusive relationship. I have no sibling feelings towards him whatsoever and we are currently living together as a couple. The only people who know the truth about us are our sister, birth mother, my foster mother and a couple of close friends. We would never feel in a position to share this information with others, given the legal situation. They were naturally shocked at first but have come to accept us for who we are.

My brother and I now have two children together, both of whom are healthy.


FME: So much for the common misunderstanding that children born to siblings “will” have birth defects. They're adorable and that's pretty much what anyone would would think if they passed by them.

We were a little concerned when I fell pregnant with our first child, as we had heard all the rumours about genetic conditions etc, but these fears proved to be unfounded. We had all the checks done that we could during the pregnancy and everything came back normal. We were immensely relieved to find that both children were born normal.


FME: What are some of the disadvantages of this relationship?

It can be difficult sometimes, as we have had to lie about how we met, etc. to people around us, as we could not afford for the truth to come out. We also had a lot of issues with my ex-husband, who would make life impossible for us if he found out and would ensure that my children were taken away from me. Without going into detail, he almost found out about us and it caused huge problems and almost ended our relationship for safety reasons. We could not afford for the UK authorities to get wind of our relationship, hence the secrecy.


FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove or your relationship?

It does annoy me when I read comments from people who have no idea what they're talking about, i.e. your child will definitely be born with problems etc.

It also annoys me when I read comments from others in the GSA community who say you cannot have a successful relationship. I think we are living proof that this is untrue. We have been together now for 7 years and are still going strong.


FME: Anything else you want people to know?

Just that if we were able to get married, we would do so in a heartbeat. We are both disappointed that this will never be a reality and are saddened by the fact that our relationship would never be accepted by society. We would be considered deviants, when in fact we have done nothing wrong. Social Services in this country would consider us a danger to our own children, which seems utterly bizarre. Just because we fell in love does not make us paedophiles or sexual deviants.

We feel it is unfair that same-sex couples are now being actively encouraged to adopt etc., when we are not even allowed to simply be together, are considered sexual deviants and could, in theory, have our children removed from us and given to a same-sex couple. Don't get me wrong, we have no issues with same-sex couples or gays and lesbians at all, but we do have an issue when we hear bigoted remarks not only from the same people who attack gays and lesbians, but from some gays and lesbians as well when it comes to people in our situation. You would think that given that they were persecuted too at one point, they would have more of an understanding.

*****

There you have it. Two consenting adults with healthy children together, denied their right to marry and having to hide their love for each other. Why? There’s no good reason. The only disadvantages to the relationship she cited had to do with prejudice against such relationships. I am more optimistic than she is about the future. The UK and other countries need to adopt full marriage equality sooner rather than later, so that an adult is free to marry any consenting adults. Real people are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely. As she noted there at the end, solidarity is needed.

You can read other interviews I have done here.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this.

If you are a family member or friend of someone who is in or may be in such a relationship, please read this.

Thank you to lilsis and the man who'd be her legal husband if the law didn't discriminate against them for sharing their situation with us.

Fraternal Polyandry in the Himalayas in the News Again

Every once in a while, people notice traditional polyandry (a form of polygamy), in which a woman marries multiple men. With fraternal polyandry, the men are brothers. That means that while she has multiple husbands, she only has one mother-in-law.

When Tashi Sangmo was 17 she married a 14-year-old neighbour in a remote Himalayan village in Nepal and, as part of the package, she also agreed to wed his younger brother.

In ancient times, the sons of almost every family in the region of Upper Dolpa would jointly marry one woman but the practice of polyandry is dying out as the region begins to open up to modern life.

"Things are easier this way because everything we have stays in one family. It doesn't get divided among many wives and it is me in charge," said Sangmo, who uses a dialect of Tibetan and was speaking through an interpreter.

"Two brothers bring in the money and it's me who decides what to do with it."

Yet, there are prejudiced anti-equality people who try to tell us that polygamy always oppresses women.

Marriages are typically arranged, with a family picking a wife for their oldest son and giving the younger brothers the chance to wed her later.

In some cases the wives will even help raise their future husbands, entering into sexual relationships with them when they are considered mature enough.

Unlike most men in conservative, predominantly Hindu Nepal, husbands in polyandrous marriages handle domestic duties, helping with cooking and childcare, while women are in charge of the money.

Interesting, no?

Polyandry works well where there is a division of labour between brothers -- one to look after livestock, one to help the wife in the fields and one to join the trade caravan.

Many also see it as a kind of life assurance, highlighting the added security for women of an arrangement which means they will not be left alone if one husband dies.

There are good reasons people have nonmonogamous marriages. Their marriages are no less valid or reason than monogamous marriages. Although customs and conditions are different in places like the US, Canada, Australia, England, or France, why shouldn’t they allow people to have polyandrous marriages if that is what they want?

Daphne Bramham is Very Upset Some Adults Love More Than One

Daphne Bramham at vancouversun.com wrote on “Polygamy and the Toronto School Board’s big mistake.” It was about this poster that showed representations of love, including what many people have interpreted as depictions of polyamorous relationships. It is part of a worthy campaign.

Toronto school board members may not have thought about polygamy when it approved a poster that shows a stick man and two stick women inside a heart.

Really? What other inference can you take from two women and a man all holding hands, even they are stick people?

That sometimes, more than two adults are involved?

Sure, Toronto is a long way from Bountiful where Canada’s most infamous polygamists live.

Those “infamous poygamists” are not the only polyamorists in Canada.

But surely someone had read about the trial in Kingston, Ont. that ended in January with the conviction of polygamist Mohammad Shafia, his second wife, Rona, and their son, Hamed, of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. The elder Shafia orchestrated the murders of his first wife and his three daughters in Kingston, Ont. and couched it all in terms of ‘honour killing.’

Good thing no professed monogamists have ever killed anyone, right? I’m sure the problem with Mohammad, Rona, and Hamed was polygamy, and that if Mohammad was a professed monogamist there would never have been a problem, right? Yes, because of this case, all adults who love more than one other adult and all adults who love someone who also loves another, and all of their children must be ignored at best and persecuted and prosecuted at worst. That makes sense. Uh huh.

Yet, school board spokesman Ryan Bird has insisted in various media interviews that told the National Post that  the poster — aimed at educating students about gender-based discrimination — was “meant to show that a person can be attracted to more than one gender.”

Well, the poster does say that, doesn’t it? Oh, so it is bisexuals we should be ignoring. Got it.

The program is supposed to affirm and support “all sexual identities, biological sexes, sexual orientations, gender expressions and gender identities.”

Good for them!

But by being so stupid and so blind how the image reads to most people, the Toronto School Board appears to be promoting a practise that leads almost invariably not only to the sexual exploitation of girls, the expulsion of boys, but poor educational and health outcomes.

Hmmm, no, I don’t think so.

It is obvious from her attack that she was "blind" to the image in the lower right corner clearly showing two males with a female. That can't represent either the Muslim or Mormon polygyny.she rails against. So, does she think polyandry is OK?

Daphne Bramham is right to be concerned about domestic violence and child abuse. She is ridiculous and it is sad that she sweepingly condemns consensual polyamorous relationships and is afraid of anything anyone might construe as a positive representation of them.

Meanwhile, in Nigeria

According to James Azania’s article at punchng.com, cousins were arrested for “incest.” Cousins. You know, people who can legally marry in so many places in the world?

Two cousins in Elele, near Auchi, Etsako West Local Government Area of Edo State, Aishetu and Ayibaba, were reportedly paraded by villagers, after they were allegedly caught in sexual act.

Oh no! People were having sex?

Ayibaba, son of a highly placed chief in the community, was said to have engaged in the act with Aishetu, a married first cousin. Aishetu is also said to be a mother of three.

So was this cheating, or does Aishetu have an agreement with her spouse? We aren’t told anything about her marriage or the opinion of her spouse.

Reports had it that some passers-by saw them in the act under a cashew tree and consequently dragged them to the village square, naked.

Really? Having sex is bad, dragging people naked to the village square is acceptable?

A woman, who identified herself as Zainab said Aishetu’s three children joined the crowd while their mother was being paraded before the public.

She said, “Aishetu is married and has three children, but she was in the habit of leaving her husband to go and have sex with her cousin who is younger than her. “

Younger than her? How dare she.

”In fact, we are suspecting that she is using charm to get her cousin to have sex with her.”

What about wiles?

”It is a taboo in this village, so that is why we are parading them in the village.”

Gossip and forcible public humiliation are perfectly fine, though.

“We learnt that they have been involved in this immoral act for a long time now. They always go to the bush to have sex. So, some members of our community followed them into the bush and immediately they started under the cashew tree, they were caught.”

And uninvited voyeurism and lying in wait (so much for the "passerby" reports) are also peachy, apparently.

Like everwhere else in the world, people in that village need to realize that consensual sex between cousins, or any other consenting adults, shouldn’t be a criminal matter. I don’t support sexual cheating, but for all we know this wasn’t cheating, and cheating shouldn’t be a criminal matter either. While the details may be different, this sort of thing also happens in places like the US. Consenting adults are arrested and "paraded" via news reports and in courtrooms and sentenced to prison for consensual sex with close relatives. It shouldn't happen in the US, the UK, Nigeria, or Nova Scotia.

Solidarity Between LGBT People and Polyamorists

At emptyclosets.com, dreamcatcher wrote about "polyamory and the lgbt community"...

Yesterday at my gsa, we had a sexuality panel where people of different sexualities (asexual, pan, bi, gay, etc) gathered together and spoke about their experiences. Two of the panel members up there were polyamorous. They were all supposed to represent all the sexualities of the lgbt community. I'm kind of confused as to why polyamory is being included in the lgbt community. They seem to be two different, unrelated things to me. Can anyone enlighten me?

Some LGBT people are monogamous, some are polyamorous.

jsmurf wrote...

Because bisexual men and women, and gay men supposedly have a knack for not being huge on committed monogamy... Which is total BS, but I guess that's how the hetero world often sees us.

Uh, was the "hetero world" organizing a Gay-Straight Alliance event?

TheEdend got it right with this...

I personally think its a great idea to educate people about the different possibilities for relationships that there are out there. It is still, sadly, a controversial topic for many people so a lot of LGBT organizations prefer to not touch the subject.

Gold Griffin showed solidarity...

I honestly have no problem with polyamory or group marriage in general. I know that it is a frequent talking point of conservatives that legalizing gay marriage leads to polygamy and whatnot, but as long as all the members of the group are consenting (and it is an equal relationship, not the patriarch and his slave wives) then I do not see any real moral obligation that would render either polygamy, polyandry, group marriage, or the like wrong.

Yes, whether someone is heterosexual, gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. is a different factor than if they are monogamous, polyamorous, etc., just like it is a different factor than if they are cisgendered, transgendered, etc. But all of those factors involve someone's identity and their sexuality. So while I can understand the benefit of having an event that focuses on LGBT monogamy, there are some events that should include polyamory not just because some LGBT people are polyamorous, but because even monogamous LGBT people and heterosexual polyamorists face continuing discrimination perpetuated by the same sources. LGBT monogamists who throw poly people under the bus are like those white US women of yesteryear who fought for their rights but threw people of color under the bus. We should all join together, including heterosexual cisgendered monogamous vanilla allies, and say that an adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults.

Valerie Spruill Raising GSA Awareness

Valerie Spruill, a woman I blogged about the other day because she unknowingly married her genetic father, continues to make the news. CNN picked up her story in this piece by Chelsea J. Carter…

It was a dark secret. The kind that destroys lives, devastates families and decimates faith.

That’s a bit negative and overly dramatic. He provided half of the genetic material that made her. And they loved each other.

Spruill met and married her husband-father in Akron and settled in Doylestown, a working class suburb of about 2,300.

It was her second marriage. Spruill was a nice man, a good provider. He was kind to her three children from her previous marriage.

"We had a good life," she said.

Isn’t that what is important???

In recent days, she has been in contact with a couple who found out after they were married that they were brother and sister.

They told her, she said, that her story is helping them deal with their own experience.

"They are trying to be friends now," Spruill said.

I wonder if they are people we already know about? It is unfortunate that they felt a need to end their marriage.

Others, though, have been less kind.

"They've said things like 'Some secrets should stay secrets,'" she said.

They’re hateful people who want to stick their heads in the sand and ignore the truth.

Spruill, herself, has three children and eight grandchildren. She struggled with telling her children that the man they believed was their step-father was their grandfather.

A therapist "advised me to tell my kids," she said. "I told them about two years ago. They are remarkable. They are handling it better than I am."

In recent days, shortly before the news broke, she also told her grandchildren.

"They have been so supportive. They are telling me they love me, telling me they will do whatever I need," she said.

That’s as it should be. Good for them!

In her spare time, since retiring from the accounting department where she worked for 34 years at Goodyear, she has been writing down her story with the hopes of publishing it.

It could make a great book and a great movie. Whether or not this was a case of Genetic Sexual Attraction, I don’t know. I have not read anything about how she and her husband met and what her feelings were like then. This case involves some of the same issues as GSA either way. In none of the stories have I seen an example of why her marriage was a problematic, other than her feelings about consanguinamory. This indicates to me that if we change our attitude towards consanguinamory, there will be less suffering.

A Perspective on Heterosexual Polygamy From Swaziland

Zakhele Dawson writes at the Times of Swaziland about polygamy, tying it in to recent local events...

If there’s one thing that can be said about Minister Hlobisile Ndlovu, it is that she is fearless in her opinions. Only days after being plastered all over the news after an altercation with her husband at OR Tambo airport in Johannesburg, she stood up in Parliament to declare that she preferred polygamous marriages to monogamous ones.

How many times have we heard that polygyny is not something any women choose?

Personally I do not see it as a question of morality but one of practicality. After all, what most western societies have forgotten is that they, too, were mostly polygamous once, in various ways. In fact, monogamy is officially practiced by a minority of cultures, although that minority includes the majority of the human population.

Interesting way of looking at it.

But polygamy, whether it is a family unit composed of one man and several wives (polygyny) or one woman and several husbands (polyandry – I just want to put on record how much I love Google), exists in societies for defined, practical reasons. I have lived in several countries around the world, both developed and undeveloped, and my observation is that polygamy is most often practiced in resource-scarce societies. It’s a way of sharing resources and responsibilities more effectively.

I suppose that depends on how one defines polygamy. Official, legally recognized marriages, perhaps. But open marriages, swinging, and polygamory are certainly found where wealth abounds, and there is polygyny among the wealthy in Arabia, no?

However, in countries where there is a large gap between the rich and the poor (in both monogamous and polygamous societies), the rich tend to operate polygamously, even if it is outside social sanction. 

Other people have noticed that, too.

The musings go into trust and jealousy. It is interesting, though I think the focus is limited and stereotypical, completely ignoring same-gender attraction and relationships and chalking up polygamy to accommodating temptation and baby making. There are people on polyamorous relationships for many reasons. Most of those relationships were not formed due to a lack of self-control.

I do see that polymorous and polygamous relationships can reduce the consumption footprint of the people involved, such as with sharing one home instead of several, and that can be beneficial for everyone.

Gender and sexual orientation equality under the law is essential. Building on those, the polygamous freedom to marry should be available to every adult, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. It is an important factor in full marriage equality.

Where to Discuss Consanguinamory

I am updating and bumping up this entry.

I welcome comments here. So when I write about consanguinamory (consensual incest) you can comment here. But if you want to find a discussion forum for these topics, where do you go?

Kindred Spirits is a great, free, welcoming discussion forum about consanguinamory. Porn is not allowed. Advice is not given in the forum discussions; you might get some through private messages. Please read the rules and introduce yourself within the time limit of registering.

Penny 4 Your Thoughts is another great, free, discussion forum. much like Kindred Spirits. It was formerly known as "Porn Free Incest" or "Incest Therapy" and has a new location. Please read the rules and introduce yourself within the time limit of registering.

For discussing consanguinamory initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction, I recommend the GSA Forums.  This new forum is ONLY for discussing Genetic Sexual Attraction, not consanguinamory between people raised together or by one another. It is a FREE, welcoming, supportive forum run by people who have much experience discussing GSA and helping people experiencing GSA. Again, please read the rules.

Another free place to discuss GSA is the private Yahoo GSA Group. You have to ask to join, and you may or may not be added.

Do you know of any other forums that are free and not overrun with spam and other noise?

Dear Margo Advice Column Addresses Twincest

Dear Margo, scion of a famous advice columnist Ann Landers and quite the advice columnist herself (her cousin carries on the Dear Abby column) got a letter that is of interest to readers of this blog, from someone who is concerned that her younger siblings (adults) are likely incestuous.

"Big Sis" wrote in...

I have a younger brother and sister who are twins, and I’m concerned about them. Several years ago, he had cancer and moved in with her while he was in treatment. He recovered and is doing great, but here’s the problem. He never moved out, and the two of them bought a house together, take trips together and go out together. It’s really creepy. I’ve been in their home, and they have separate bedrooms, but I think that’s just a ruse. Neither of them dates anymore, but with all of the available people out there, couldn’t they find someone? I’m worried they will be discovered, and it will hurt them and our whole family. Is there an answer to this?

So she took care of him while he had cancer. How beautiful. Sounds like they really love each other. So they are not dating other people anymore. How likely it is it that BOTH of them have no sex drive and no desire for a sexual/romantic partner? It's possible, but the odds are slim. It is more likely they have found everything they want and need in each other, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It is understandable that the letter writer is concerned, given the lingering prejudices and discrimination against these consensual relationships. She should read this. It is also possible that the letter writer is just a wee bit jealous.

Dear Margo's response...

What, exactly, is the question? You have decided this is an incestuous situation based on circumstantial evidence, as far as I can tell. It may be a love affair of the narcissistic, unhealthy kind, or it may be that they gave up looking for partners and decided they like doing things together.

It is not narcissistic or unhealthy for them to love each other in every way. Twins are distinct people. They would be loving each other, not being narcissists.

Then, too, as the child of a twin, I can tell you there is a different, perhaps stronger bond than singletons. It is not usually sexual when siblings decide to live together.

Dear Margo is admitting that sometimes, it IS sexual.

Because you are concerned, however, you might mention that from the outside it looks like a romance and you are concerned. Whether their response is defensive or they just laugh will give you a clue — though they might be legitimately offended. And really, it is their business. Should your worst fears be the reality, it is no reflection on your family.

She got that right.

Really, the only reason someone else should bring it up to is congratulate them on their happiness and offer support. I mean really... do you think people in love are going to say, "Oh look, someone else not in the relationship doesn't like that we are happy together. Let's split up!"??? If she wags her finger at them they could very well drop her from their lives.

Big Sis, I urge you to simply show love and support to your siblings, whether they are consanguinamorous or not, they are happy together. Let them be!

Did Valerie Spruill Experience GSA?

Most people who experience Genetic Sexual Attraction are aware of their genetic relationship, or have reason to believe it is a possibility. Others, though, fall in love with a strong feeling of attraction, build a life together, even marry and have children only to discover their close genetic relation later.

I like to point out that what matters most is how the people in any relationship treat each other. If they are right for each other, if they love each other, if they treat each other well, what does it matter what their races, genders, ages (provided they are adults), or level of consanguinity are?

Bob Dyer, Akron Beacon Journal columnist (Ohio, USA), brings is the story of Valerie Spruill and the marriage she had. It starts off with a negative approach...

Valerie Spruill (Phil Masturzo/Akron Beacon Journal)

The next time you think you’re having a bad day, image how Valerie Spruill felt when she discovered that her husband and her father are the same person.

And what exactly is the problem? I know there are people going "eew!" but why? They aren't attracted to their fathers or daughters because the Westermarck Effect has repelled them. Or they hate their father or daughter. But that wasn't the case here. They were attracted to each other and loved each other. So what is the problem?

It wasn't until after her husband died that a relative told her that her husband was her genetic father and Valerie was able to confirm with DNA evidence.

Not that her life had been a breeze four decades earlier when she found out at the age of 9 that the man she thought was her father was actually her grandfather, and that a person who had been identified as a “family friend” was actually her mother.

Spruill didn’t learn until later that her mom also was one of three “night ladies,” as she terms it, who testified in the infamous 1980 corruption trial of Summit County Probate Judge James Barbuto.

Why would anyone volunteer this kind of information?

Because Valerie Spruill wants to be an example. The 60-year-old Doylestown woman wants to show other folks born into miserable situations that they can still lead good, productive, fulfilling lives.

Good for her!

Dreams

Over at thefrisky.com, 10 "common" sex dreams got a brief explanation of meaning. I'm not sure their explainations should be taken too seriously. Their explanation of incestuous dreams only takes the approach of waking incest being predatory (rape, molestation), unfortunately.

Incestuous sex dreams are by far the most disturbing and hardest to shake off when you wake up.

Certainly if they involve predatory behavior. Although, they had a separate interpretation for rape dreams. Dreams with consensual incest may not be disturbing at all.

Before I go any further here, I should note that if you had a real-life experience with incest and are having dreams about it, you should seek professional help.

If you've never been a victim of incest, dreaming of sex with a family member can mean a few different things -- none of them insidious. Sex with a parent may have to do with transitioning into adulthood or becoming a parent yourself. Sex with any family member can be about acceptance, deep forgiveness, a longing to be closer or heal a rift.

And what about people who have experienced or are experiencing consensual incest? This blurb takes the approach of ignoring that reality.

Apparently having forgotten about the term "gay," here's what they had to say about "homosexual sex"...

If you are not homosexual in your waking life, but dream of having sex with someone of the same sex, it's about your self-esteem. Depending on how the dream plays out, this same sex dream is about loving parts of yourself that you've been less than accepting of. Homosexual sex with a friend may be a commentary about some rift between you, insecurities about the friendship, or some quality or talent they have that you emulate. Don't worry, it doesn't mean you secretly want to sleep with your best friend.

Yes, don't worry even though it would be so horrible to have sex with someone you get along with so well, especially if that would mean you are... homosexual... or bisexual.

Finally, here's what they said about a dream featuring sex with a stranger...

Carl Jung had a theory that every man and woman has an animus or anima. An animus is the male energy of a female and the anima is female energy of a male. Sex with a stranger of the opposite sex has to do with the state of your animus/anima. It's about balance, about merger of the male and female aspects of yourself. And actually, sex with a stranger in a dream, given that it is not scary or traumatic, can be quite a fortuitous sign of personal growth.

Growth is good, right? As long as it doesn't involve sex with, you know, your best friend or your sibling. At least that's what I've picked up from their dream interpretation. I'm sure there are better, more thorough explanations for various dreams. I need to crack open some books I haven't opened in a long time.

Keep in mind that sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Now if you'll excuse me, the folks at the frisky.com are going to read the bumps on my head.

A Polyamorous Woman Writes of First Play Party

Polyamorists are not necessarily swingers. (Note: consider all links in this entry after that one NSFW.) Many poly people are in closed polycules and members of that polycule only date and have sex with people within that polycule. Some poly people do swing, however. Zoe is polyamorous and wrote about her first swinger party, which she checked out because one of her lovers is a swinger.

Guy and his wife tried to prep me as best as they could. He talked to me about what the physical layout would be (i.e. social area, public area with toys laid out, private bedroom), gave me a run down on who he expected to be there, even tried to help with my most worrisome question – what to wear.

What did she wear?

After careful consideration and an unplanned shopping trip, I found something that was cute, fashionable and had my daughter’s seal of approval, “Oh, mom you could so wear that clubbing!”

Okay.

I staked out a spot on a futon in the social area and watched while people arrived. I was introduced to all of them either by Guy or by simply being in that area.  Everyone was extremely friendly.  It was in that moment that I had my first epiphany of the evening (yes there were several), “It was all so NORMAL.”  It was absolutely normal party behavior; a group of people getting together and being social. It was almost as if they could have flipped on a movie or fired up a barbeque.

Yup. Polyamorous people and swingers are the people next door, the people at the PTA meeting, the people delivering your mail, the people stuck in traffic next to you. Dear reader, you know some poly people and some swingers whether you know it or not.

Three Loving Relationships That Face Discrimination

It seems like every week now I want to post some things from Kindred Spirits forum, which is the best place I know of to discuss consanguinamory. Below are things written by three people who each in relationships that would be subject to prosecution, persecution, discrimination… you name it… in so many places. (If you want to join the forum, please be sure to read and follow the rules or you'll be dropped.)

A woman I’ve quoted before, who is in a spousal relationship with her brother, wrote a profoundly touching entry…

Just the other day my elder sister said something that really got me thinking, and I started wondering if what she said could actually be true.

She said to me “You know what sis, you were born to love your brother”. When I asked what she meant by that she told me how she had always felt as if me and [my brother] were just made for each other, even before we started into a relationship. Well obviously this got me thinking on this, and after talking things over with [my brother], I have to agree with her statement.

Tuesday in Elizabethtown, PA

Something that might be of interest if you'll be in or around Elizabethtown, PA this coming Tuesday...

At 8 p.m. Tuesday, Sept. 18, Elizabethtown College Associate Professor Kimberly VanEsveld Adams offers explanation to “‘This Brother Who Was not a Brother’: Incestuous Affinities in Wuthering Heights.” Early marriage definitions were different than today, and a number of Victorian writers thought that a good one began as a brotherly-sisterly relationship, but not between actual siblings.

 
Event Website

Sounds interesting. As I have blogged numerous times, stepsiblings, adopted siblings, and long-lost (or not) half siblings and full siblings can go on to have happy, healthy, lasting spousal relationships.

Father-Son GSA

I am bumping up this entry dealing with Genetic Sexual Attraction because it is just as relevant as ever.

Someone calling himself Saul wrote to Miriam Stoppard’s advice column…

When I was in my teens and still thought of myself as straight, I had a brief relationship with a girl. Now, 20 years on, I've been contacted by the son I never knew existed and he's gay like me.

I think it's great he's happy with his sexuality and I love having him in my life - it's like being with my younger self.

What really bothers me is I've started to become attracted to him. A 15-year relationship ended last year and I hate myself for thinking the things I've been thinking. What should I do?

Saul should be careful. As with attraction in another other case, the feelings might not be mutual or even if mutual, the other person may not want to act on them. Saul does not indicate that he thinks it is best for him not to act on his feelings, though he did write that the feelings bother him.

If he isn’t open to acting on his feelings, then he should not tell his son about them, and instead seek advice on how to cope from people who have been through the same thing at this website. Most people, at some point in their lives, have attractions that they do not express, at least not to the person to whom they are attracted.

Maybe there just needs to be more time, and the feelings will go away.

However, if they don't and if Saul is open to acting on that attraction, then he should be as cautious as he would be in any other delicate situation, such as with a friend or coworker, but keep in mind that there is much prejudice.

For example, the columnist writes…

You must resist the temptation to express your feelings for your son by touching him sexually.

Why? If they both want it, then they are consenting adults. They don’t currently rely on each other; one is not the boss, landlord, or legal guardian of the other.

This would be incest and you would create disastrous, complicated, serious problems for yourself and your son.

The only problems I can think of, besides the normal risks inherent in sexual relationships, is prejudice. Remove the prejudice, and suddenly there aren’t so many problems.

Fate has placed him in your path and you should fulfil your destiny and be his dad.

The young man is an adult. If he doesn’t have a “dad” already, then Saul can be both his father and lover. How about opening up that mind a little?

Nick Cassavetes and the Naked Emperor

Full marriage equality and relationship rights in general are advancing, and it is scaring the bigots. More countries and US states are embracing the limited same-gender freedom to marry, Utah's law against simply living together is being challenged, Brazil is recognizing polyamorous relationships, Showtime has raised the profile of polyamory, and major Hollywood filmmaker Nick Cassavetes has depicted a consanguinamorous relationship and defended such relationships in general, and those of all consenting adults.

Granted, Cassavetes would have been done better by not mentioning the same-gender freedom to marry, and rather just stuck with discussing consenting adults in general and their relationship rights, but he should be cut some slack. He's not a rights blogger who has dealt with these issues in precise language every day, and he's an ally for full marriage equality and relationship rights in general. He has pointed out that the emperor has no clothes, and people are having fits.

Let's look at more of the reaction to his comment. Anti-equality Darleen at proteinwisdom.com frets...

The Strongest Bond of Sibling Consanguinamory

Perhaps the most common brush with consensual incest that people have, aside from cousins, is rather tame interactions with their siblings when they are very young: skinny dipping, playing doctor, show me yours and I'll show you mine, going or a feel while roughhousing, truth or dare, etc. This is so common and not really a big deal. It is such a little deal that many people forget they even did it. For some siblings too old to be interested in childhood games, things can be a little more serious. The sibling bond, shared experiences, trust, curiosity, hyper hormones, proximity, privacy, convenience, and sometimes relative isolation combine to foster situations where some siblings experiment and explore with each other. Some of these have flings, some develop ongoing agreements/arrangements, some have love affairs, and some go on to be lifelong spouses, even if denied standing as such by the law. This can also happen later in life, as siblings comfort each other through the rough times of life, or simply have a wild night, or realize they belong together... societal prejudices be damned.

Kindred Spirits continues to be the best forum I know of to discuss consanguinamory between any adults, not only siblings, but other close relatives, too. But a couple of the admins there are women who are, for their intents, married to the brothers with whom they were raised. They have bonds that are unmatched by any other. These women are intelligent, attractive women and if you passed them on the street you wouldn't think they are odd in any way. (If you join the forum, be sure to read and follow the rules or you won't last long.)
    
As one admin wrote...

Nick Cassavetes Makes Sense, Causes Stir

As I mentioned yesterday, filmmaker Nick Cassavetes has spoke out, and here's just a little of the reaction. The first coverage I saw was at huffingtonpost.com, but they got it from Sharon Waxman at thewrap.com...

Writer-director Nick Cassavetes unveiled his new movie “Yellow” at the Toronto Film Festival this weekend and found himself defending the main character’s incestuous love affair with her own brother.

“Yellow” stars Cassavetes’ ex-wife, Heather Wahlquist, as Mary, a beautiful woman addicted to pain pills. She searches for a stable place back home in Oklahoma after being expelled from her teaching job in L.A. for having broom closet sex on parent night. (Wahlquist, who co-wrote the film is from Oklahoma. Melanie Griffith plays her mother, and Sienna Miller is her hysterical sister.)

Sounds interesting.

Along the way she stops to see her brother in prison with whom she has had a love affair. The scene between them is tender and affecting and signals no judgment of the relationship.

Good! It is about time! Actually, it is way past time that this reality has been depicted for the big screen.

Getty Images

Cassavetes – a maverick filmmaker whose parents are the legendary actress Gena Rowlands and actor-director John Cassavetes -- confessed he could not condemn it. “I have no experience with incest,” he told TheWrap in an interview on Sunday. “We started thinking about that. We had heard a few stories where brothers and sisters were completely, absolutely in love with one another. You know what? This whole movie is about judgment, and lack of it, and doing what you want.

“Who gives a s--- if people judge you?” he continued.

Thank you! Of course, the problem is that in many places, the law still criminalizes such relationships. He then says something that has caused some concern by some who bristle at solidarity...

“Love who you want. Isn’t that what we say? Gay marriage – love who you want? If it’s your brother or sister it’s super-weird, but if you look at it, you’re not hurting anybody except every single person who freaks out because you’re in love with one another.”

He could have phrased that better, but I think the guy deserves a break. He's not saying that same-gender marriage is the same thing as consanguinamorous relationships. (Most consanguinamorous relationships are mixed gender, after all.) He's saying that consenting adults should be free to have sex with each other and love each other as they want. He's a filmmaker, not a sex-positive blogger or podcaster who deals with the delicate politics of this day in and day out. Heterosexual consanguineous lovers and LGBT people should be allies, not enemies.

With “Yellow,” Cassavetes wanted to portray an archetype of a certain sort of modern woman who is, in his words, both  "a rock star" and "a mess."

“We wanted an exaggerated version of a girl who came from a place where different things are acceptable,” he said. “We wanted her to have a reason why she couldn’t feel. She’s a walking dead.”

He added: “In a certain respect I feel like I’m this lizard, sapped of all my feelings… Something had to happen to this character that was traumatic and beautiful and made her a pariah."

We need more positive and otherwise realistic portrayals of consanguinamory. Some of the people ticked as Cassavetes, ranging from the anti-equality sex-negative people to the portion of same-gender freedom to marry activists who want no part of solidarity, may be forgetting the mutual exploration of their adolescence and childhood, because it was just that... playing around and not a love affair. But some siblings have wholistic loving relationships, some lasting throughout their lives, and they should not be thrown under the bus.

TMZ.com had a blurb on this, and it was covered by Taylor Bigler of dailycaller.com and Erin Strecker at ew.com.

A Mess in Malaysia

As we see, the charge of “incest” is still wielded as a political tool, much as it has been used for centuries. This time, it is in Malaysia, as reported at thestar.com.my by Simon Khoo.

The teenage son of an opposition politician here is expected to be charged with committing incest this week.

Pahang CID chief Senior Asst Comm T. Narenasagaran said police had received a report on the DNA analysis several days ago which revealed that a 14-year-old suspect was the father of a baby girl delivered by a 15-year-old girl last month.

“We have submitted our investigation papers to the Attorney-General chambers to charge the teenager under Section 376 (3) of the Penal Code.

From previous reports, 15-year-old is the defendant’s sister. Actually, she could be his half-sister as their father has two wives and eleven children. For all we know they could have been raised in seperate homes.

The offence carries a jail term of up to 30 years and at least 10 strokes of the rotan, upon conviction.

However, due to the suspect’s age and should he plead guilty, he would likely be ordered to serve time at a children’s rehabilitation institution.

There’s nothing in the report to indicate this was anything but consensual. The defendant is younger than the alleged victim.

Last month, Jerantut police detained a 59-year-old man and his son for suspected incest after the 15-year-old girl delivered a baby girl in Kajang.

Upon questioning, the girl claimed that the father of her baby was a family member.

I’m not familiar with the laws in Malaysia (other than the age of consent being 16). Isn’t there a rape charge, if this indeed was rape? Speaking of rape, I know in some Muslim countries a woman who says she was raped or who gives birth out of wedlock risks some nasty consequences. Is that why she answered the (interrogation?) by saying it was a family member?

If this was consensual, this should not be a crime in the first place. Instead, the new parents should be supported in raising their child. And notice the article doesn’t note that the child has any birth defects. If it wasn't consensual, then the brother should be charged with rape. But nobody should face criminal charges for consensual sex.

Is Nick Cassavetes an Ally For Consanguinamorists?

Several sources are reporting that acclaimed and accomplished Hollywood filmmaker Nick Cassavetes, currently screening and promoting "Yellow,"  has spoken out for relationship rights for all adults, including consensual incest (consanguinamory.)

This will probably draw hateful comments from people who mistake consensual sex between close relatives with rape/molestation by close relative. This is as ridiculous as equating consensual casual sex with rape by a stranger.

There is no good reason to deny relationship rights, including sexual freedom, to consenting adults and anyone who says so, especially from a visible platform, should be commended for speaking out.

Tomorrow, I hope to have more coverage about Cassavetes' statement and the reaction to it.

When Someone You're Dating Has Something to Tell You

A very interesting discussion thread was underway at datehookup.com that, unfortunately, was deleted. But not before I found it. Ha! It was about "dating those who have been involved in incest." That is a legitimate discussion topic, whether one is referring to rape/molestation or consensual sex/consanguinamory, which are two very different things. But whichever definition for "incest" one is using, anyone who dates more than a few people in their lifetime dates someone who has been involved, whether the topic is discussed or not. Consensual incest is a very real part of life, and, unfortunately, so it rape or molestation by a close relative, and both can have implications for dating relationships. Consanguinamory is still criminalized in many places, not everywhere. I fail to see why this isn't a valid topic of discussion.


calthropstu starting the thread off, referring to consensual sex...

Here is the scenario I propose:
You have been dating someone for 4 months and you are highly interested in him/her. Then they suddenly drop a bombshell: they have been in a relationship with a brother/sister, parent, aunt/uncle or first cousin. Maybe there is even a kid involved.


Would you break up with them immediately or continue the relationship?

He added later...

Crushes

A blogger asked readers about their “inappropriate crushes,” writing…

Last night I was watching a press conference with Jimmer Fredette. I looked at the screen and thought “wow, that guy is cute.”

Then I felt guilty, and shuddered. Checking out a college “kid” is almost as bad as thinking your relative is attractive.

People unapologetically write statements like that, as if it is the way everyone feels. It is like assuming that everyone eats red meat, or everyone is heterosexual. Many people have crushes on, the hots for, or a deep attraction to a relative. Or, they may simply notice how attractive their relative is. Nobody should be made to feel lesser because they do. Some people are not only attracted to one or more of their relatives, but they have mutually enjoyable and beneficial sexual relationships with them. Some of those are spousal relationships, though in many places relatives closer than first cousins can’t legally marry. Some US states do not even allow first cousins to marry. All such laws need to go away.

Why would it be surprising to find someone attractive (say, your parent) that someone else in your family found attractive (your other parent) or has inherited some of physical characteristics that attracted your family member (your sibling?)

When you include aunts, uncles, first cousins, and second cousins, it is safe to say that a majority of people have had at least a crush on a relative. So much so that those who haven’t may come from very unattractive families. I’m only half-kidding.

There’s also nothing wrong with being attracted to someone who is “college age” regardless of your own age. That is normal.

An attraction or infatuation becomes a problem when it is not mutual or when acting upon it would be problematic, such as violating existing vows to another, and if dwelling on such an unrequited infatuation prevents someone from functioning as they should in interpersonal relationships, work, etc.

John Danaher Defends Consanguinamory

In three entries at the blog Philosophical Disquisitions, John Danaher skillfully exposes that the reasons people use to condemn consanguinamory are not good reasons and he shows that consensual incest should be decriminalized.

In part one, he dismantles Discredited Arguments #2 & 4.

In part two, he dismantles Discredited Arguments #18 & 19.

In part three, he dismantles Discredited Arguments #1, 9 & 20.

1. The Argument from the Prevention of Sexual Abuse
This argument is neither persuasive nor philosophically interesting, but it is surprisingly pervasive so we need to give it some consideration. The argument claims that incest laws are needed in order to prevent sexual abuse within families. One can understand the concern. Children and dependent family members are often abused by older siblings and parents so anything that can help to prevent this kind of abuse from occurring is to be welcomed.

Although the concern is understandable, is the claim made on behalf of incest laws a good one? To answer that, let’s first formalise the argument:

• (1) If an activity constitutes a form sexual abuse and domination, it ought to be criminalised. 

• (2) Incest constitutes a form of sexual abuse or domination.

• (3) Therefore, incest ought to be criminalised.

As I say, the general principle stated by premise (1) looks pretty sound to me. But the claim made by premise (2) seems deeply flawed. Most importantly, as specifically defined in the first part of this series, incest involves consensual sexual relations between adult relatives. As such it is not a form of abuse or domination. This definition is mirrored in most incest statutes, which typically ban all consensual sexual relations between close relatives and ban marriages between such relatives too. So, in other words, those laws do not limit themselves to abusive relationships.

Of course, that’s not to say that abuse or domination do not take place within families or that we should do nothing about it. But this brings us to the second point: there are plenty of other laws on the books that cover abuse and sexual domination within families. Looking solely to the legal position in England and Wales, we find that sections 5-8 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 make it an offence to engage in or incite sexual activity with children under the age of 13, irrespective of whether they consent (because, broadly speaking, children below that aged are deemed incapable of consenting to such activities). These laws would cover the kind of scenario envisaged by this particular defence of incest laws thus rendering specific incest laws redundant.

Than you to John Danaher for so eloquently defending something that is very real to many people: loving, wholistic relationships and enjoyable recreation with close relatives. People should not have to fear prosecution, bullying, or discimination for loving each other. Let consenting adults have the relationships in which they best function; the relationships of their own choosing.

Is Florida Prosecuting People for Consensual Sex?

Unfortunately, we are given the name of the alleged "criminal" which is probably why we're not given the age of the supposed "victim" because it would be considered identifying her.

From marconews.com comes this terse report, lacking enough information...

A 20-year-old North Naples man is accused of incest after a female relative became pregnant.

 Notice the charge is "incest," not sexual assault, not statutory rape.

Family members called deputies Tuesday after finding a positive pregnancy test in the alleged victim's sock drawer, according to an arrest report.

Family members called police. Not the supposed victim. Either the supposed victim didn't complain to them, or they only cared once she became pregnant. My guess is that she never complained to them.

She told deputies she had sex with Anthony Alan Larde, 20, about five times, a report said.

She said they "had sex." Notice she didn't say she was raped.

Larde told investigators he did have sex with the relative but added that "it was her idea," the report said.

Rapists say that, too, so that isn't relevant, other than the fact that if that is true and if this was indeed consensual, it makes it even more ridiculous that he's been arrested.

Reports did not indicate the relationship between the 20-year-old and the alleged victim, whose age was redacted.

Wouldn't the police have noted she was underage if she was? In Florida, the ange of consent is 18, but a person 23 years of age or younger can legally have sex with a complete stranger who is 16 or older. If they are of legal ages, his being arrested and her not could be yet another example of the stupid idea that young women do not enjoy sex.

So what do we likely have here? Two people enjoying sex  with each other, perhaps even lovemaking, if they are in love. Why is anyone interfering in their relationship? Why should he be prosecuted? If they want to have sex, if they want to be together, if they want to get married... they should be allowed to do all of those things. It is time for Florida authorities to get on the right side of history and stay out of out bedrooms!

Some People Just Discovering Consanguinamory in Japanese Media

Steven at en.rocketnews24.com asks, "Is Incest Japan's Latest Literary Craze?" As I have noted, sex between relatives who are consenting adults is legal in Japan, making Japan one of the progressive nations in this matter. As explained...

Japanese “light novels” are a type of short and often serialized young adult novel that are usually heavy on dialogue and light on narrative depth. The growing popularity of light novels has made them common choices for manga and anime adaptations, such as the Haruhi Suzumiya series.

Got that?

One of the more popular light novel series in recent years is My Little Sister Can’t Be This Cute, which tells the story of a normal high school student who finds out his prodigious younger sister is actually a closet otaku, obsessed with anime and incest-themed adult computer games…

That would be quite the discovery.

It’s probably less unwholesome than it sounds (at least by Japanese standards), and the point is that the series has become so popular that it has spawned an anime and manga series as well as several video games

It has also seemed to usher in a new craze of light novels about the relationship between normal older brothers and their not-so-normal little sisters.

There's a big audience for this.

Radhika Seth at japandailypress.com is not happy about this, but doesn't explain what the actual problem is. People who express disapproval would no doubt be shocked to know how many successful people, including leaders and innovators and artists, are in, or have been in, consanguinamorous relationships with siblings. There no reason why consanguinamorous siblings shouldn't be depicted in media.

Here are some entries from last year about consanguinamory in Japan and depictions thereof in Japanese media.

Sherry Colb is an Ally for Consanguinamory

At Dorf on Law, Sherry Colb takes a thoughtful look at situation described by Professor Jonathan Haidt in his 2012 book, The Righteous Mind:  Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion.

One of his examples involves consensual incest between adult siblings who use contraception, whose behavior will never be repeated, and about whose sexual relationship no one will learn. I think this is a very effective example, because it demonstrates that truly harmless behavior can nonetheless arouse moral disgust in most of us, along with the inclination to pass negative judgments. The law reflects this inclination (in the case of incest) in that almost every state in this country prohibits incest, even when it involves consenting adults (though the content of the category is defined with varying breadth in different places).

Emphasis mine.

After reading more about couples that were otherwise quite ordinary and simply sought the right to marry like other people could, I concluded that even though I and a majority of people find the idea of sibling incest disgusting, and perhaps in part because we do, it is very important to protect people who want to engage in such behavior from the consequences of our disgust, so long as the behavior harms no one.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!!





She goes on to demolish Discredited Argument #18 and thoroughly explains why Discredited Argument #1 should not translate to law.

As Ms. Colb demonstrates, we can be personally disgusted by something and recognize there is no reason to have laws preventing others from enjoying that thing. As more and more people become allies, we accelerate towards full marriage equality and other relationship rights for all.

The Libertine

After I interviewed Chrissy, her friend Tiffany agreed to an interview.

Tiffany is a 20 year old university student in America and describes herself as half Latina, half Native American. She is majoring in Philosophy, and hopes to become a Professor one day. She has no kids.

Most of the interviews I have done have been with people who are in love and in closed relationships and want to marry their lover(s) and are prevented by discrimination that still remains in marriage law. Tiffany just wants to keep her very active sex life, some of which remains illegal in much of this country.

While many people will find her sex life (and this explicit interview below - you are warned) shocking, as I always say what one person wants for herself another might not want for himself. Regardless, adults should be free to share sex with any consenting adults.

As always, the opinions expressed by the interviewee are those of the interviewee, not necessarily those of this blog.

American Democrats: Add Full Marriage Equality to Your Platform

In the US, the Democratic Party's national convention is upon us, and while the Republicans, who had their convention last week, continue to oppose even the limited same-gender freedom to marry, the Democratic Party will be officially supporting the limited same-gender freedom to marry in their platform. Clearly, of the two major parties, the Democratic Party is more friendly to full marriage equality. This being an Presidential Election year, the platform and the party convention are especially important.


Democrats should stand up and say that every adult, regardless of sexual orientation, gender, race, or religion, should have the right to share marriage with any consenting adults. Now is the time for the party to stand up for full marriage equality, not just one limited freedom to marry at a time.

I humbly suggest calling for the adoption of the Marriage Equality Amendment.

Show solidarity so that every adult is free to marry the person(s) she or he loves.

People Fascinated by Penny Lawrence and Garry Ryan

One of the most popular search terms that brings people to this blog is "Penny Lawrence and Garry Ryan" or some variation thereof, and an entry I wrote about the couple is one of the most-viewed entries here, and by far the one that draws the most comments... so many that many of the people commenting don't bother to read the other comments and essentially repeat a previous comment as though they are writing something I haven't seen before. I think one reason is that Penny is so attractive. This is a woman who could have her pick of men; she wanted Garry. This still draws interest. A website called theproudparents.com recently featured the couple's story.

As I have always said, they should be free to be together, and free to marry if that is what they want. There is no good reason to force them apart.

Of course, there are people with biases and prejudices who spout bigoted opinions about them. So it shouldn't be surprising that some of the comments after this latest coverage, which added nothing new, included such hate...

Zimbabwe Arrests Adults For Consensual Sex

In a report at chronicle.co.zw, we see both the prosecution of consenting adults for sex,  a a bias in the media against the lovers.

In a bizarre case, a 38-year-old mother and her son from Gutu have left the whole community in shock after they were caught being intimate during a night prayer vigil.

"Bizarre?" The only thing bizarre is that consenting adults are being prosecuted. What does it matter if other people were praying somewhere? In any given town, there's somebody praying and somebody making love. Sometimes they are the same people.

Appearing before Gutu resident magistrate, Mr Nyasha Vhitori recently, the woman and her 18-year-old son were not asked to plead to charges of incest.

The duo was remanded out of custody to 18 September for trial.

The case should be dropped. Nobody has been harmed.

For the State, Ms Agatha Gabriel told the court that on an unknown date but sometime in July this year, the woman allegedly coerced her son into making love and he consented.

Either it was coerced or it was consensual. The prosecution can't even get their story straight.

The court further heard the two’s illicit sexual encounters, which are believed to have started in April this year, came to light sometime last month.

It is said the two would normally do their sordid act during night prayer vigils and on the fateful day, the two were caught by two minors who were attending a church service at Runyowa business centre.

Privacy is important.

It is said the encounters happened so frequently that the two had lost count of the number of occasions they had been intimate.

Sounds like they are in love and enjoying each other.

They are adults. As long as it is consensual, they should be free to be together. Nobody else has to like it. It is a waste of resources to prosecute them. An adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY consenting adults.