Virtual Stepsiblings Keep Love a Secret

Daniel J. Tomasulo (PhD, TEP, MFA) puts a woman at ease over “incest” fears.

About 4 years ago my mom met a man after leaving an abusive husband. The man (her boyfriend now) has a son who is only a few months younger than me. Ever since we met the first time we clicked. We never intentionally did anything but it happened and we found ourselves falling for each other. I’ve had issues with trust and abandonment and he knew how to make me feel better without even knowing of my issues. We bring the best out in each other. (not that we haven’t had problems). Our relationship has grown over the years and I know for sure I’m in love and have no interest in anyone else. We’ve talked and he says he loves me as well and we have had a steady relationship since January.

How wonderful. So many people in their situations constantly bicker or are indifferent to each other, but they’ve found love with each other.

In most aspects we are an average couple except that no one knows about it other than us. (we’ve told friends we are in relationships, just not with each other)

It is sad that they’ve felt this need to stay in the closet.

Our parents are not married and say that they do not plan on marriage.

I know that is relevant in the laws of some states, but I don’t think it should be. Even most of the flimsy objections to consensual incest do not apply to this situation.

So what I would like to know is would we be considered step siblings and therefore our relationship incest? Or is it ok to continue our relationship?

I would say, of course, that it is definitely ok to continue the relationship. If they want a label to apply to their relationship, how about “loving?” If someone brings up their parents being a couple, they should respond by asking exactly what the problem is with that.

Tomasulo’s answer reassures the writer.

The hysteria against consanguineous sex and consanguinamory spreads into other areas, which is another reason people need to calm down and think through these matters with an open mind. In addition to the since-the-beginning-of-time situation with siblings and half siblings, there are so many situations now with stepsiblings and virtual stepsiblings, and they should be allowed their happiness, too.

British Geneticist Notes that Consanguinamory is Not Rare

Professor Steve Jones, a British geneticist, has stirred up some controversy by warning about Muslims (and others) who marry and have children with close relatives.

The geneticist said that it was common in the Islamic world for men to marry their nieces and cousins.

He said that Bradford has a particular problem and warned that it could affect the health of children born into these marriages.

Could. Could. That means that no, cousin-cousin or uncle-niece marriage does not, as too many people believe, automatically result in birth defects. In fact, parent-child offspring and sibling-sibling offspring are often healthy.

“It is common in the Islamic world to marry your brother’s daughter, which is actually closer than marrying your cousin.

“We should be concerned about that as there can be a lot of hidden genetic damage. Children are much more likely to get two copies of a damaged gene.”

They are also more likely to get two copies of an advantageous gene.

Studies have found that within the city, more than 70 per cent of marriages are between relations, with more than half involving first cousins.

Sounds like there’s much consanguinamory.

Prof Jones also said that incest was more common than is often realised in every part of society, adding that it had been particular prevalent among royalty and suggested it is still continuing.

This is nothing new. From royalty to commoners, from the urban to the rural, everything from youthful experimentation to lifelong spousal relationships have been going on between close relatives for all of human history.

Half Siblings Have Meddling Relatives

Annalisa Barbieri at The Guardian fielded a letter of interest to supporters of full marriage equality. DJ wrote…

Our granddaughter is 24. There is some evidence that she is having sexual relations with her half-brother, who is 21.

That would make them both adults. This is none of the grandparent’s business, unless this becomes a marital situation. Then the grandparents may be invited to the wedding, provided they will not be hostile.

Our granddaughter was brought up by her mother, who did not allow her ever to meet or know her biological father. At sometime in the last year our granddaughter made contact with him and his family. Our granddaughter has made friends with all of them, but it appears that she has made a close sexual relationship with the 21-year-old.

Sounds like it could be Genetic Sexual Attraction.

Also the son's father, whom we have not seen for 20 years, contacted us because he is worried himself and has found emails from our granddaughter to his son that indicate this relationship is happening.

There shouldn’t be concern, other than concern that they may be bullied by bigots. Have the concerned family members read this.

We are aware that incest is against the law and all cultural and moral codes.

It is against some cultural codes in some places. It isn’t illegal everywhere. There isn’t a good reason why it should continue to be illegal, nor to deny this couple the freedom to marry, if that’s what they choose. In Sweden, half-siblings can marry.

We wish to find a way to proceed that will keep them both safe from any harm to themselves or their future careers.

Then support them, and stand up for full marriage equality.

The response…

I spoke to Robert Brown, a criminal lawyer and partner at Corker Binning, who confirmed that sex between a half-brother and sister is a prohibited adult sexual relationship, under section 64 of the Sexual Offences Act (2003).

Ridiculous.

Brown concluded: "From the limited facts available, I have to be cautious in my advice. But it would appear that there is little to suggest that this is not a caring and loving relationship between healthy adults. If so, and I were their lawyer, I would certainly make representations to the [Crown Prosecution Service] to the effect that this is not a case in which the public interest could only be met by the couple being charged and taken to court. It is impossible to predict whether the CPS would agree. If both individuals had admitted the incest, were of good character and the relationship was not in any way 'unhealthy', then the CPS may agree not to prosecute, but I think it would insist on both individuals being cautioned."

It should not be the government’s business in the first place.

Finally, I must point out that accessing someone else's email without permission could amount to an offence under the Computer Misuse Act.

There’s a real crime, one with actual victims.

When someone finds love, we should be happy for them, not looking for ways to break them up.

Man Charged With Incest Apparently Kills Self

A Michael Kimball, someone I wrote about in this earlier posting, apparently killed himself in his jail cell.

According to a press release from Commander Dan O'Fallon, Kimball had contact with Detention staff about 15 minutes before he was found hanging in his cell.

Kimball was transported to Emergency Room and was pronounced dead around 1 am on Thursday.

O'Fallon says Kimball was moved into the private cell two hours prior to the incident and was checked on six times during that period.

As a reminder…

Kimball was charged in March with two counts of incest for allegedly having sex with one of his children several times from 2007 to 2010.

Atrociously, there is still no indication in this report as to whether this was consensual sex with adult offspring, or whether this was child/statutory rape. If it was the latter, then I’d say good riddance. If it was the former, then this is a serious miscarriage of justice.

One Woman’s Changing Mind on Polygyny

Here’s a slice of life, “Polygamy Ain't Lookin' So Bad,” that is tongue-in-cheek (including playing off gender stereotypes) but still shows why some women may want polygyny. I’d like to note that “polygamy,” while used to describe polygyny in this essay, can also be polyandry (one wife, many husbands), all-female marriages of three or more, all male marriages of three or more, or group marriages involving at least two people of each gender.

Ahhhh, polygamists: scary old white men marrying dozens and dozens of 13-year-old sisters or… Bin Laden.

That’s all too often the media portrayal.

It has been practiced for millions of years and not just by sickos. I have the read the Bible, thank you very much, and quite a few of those revered guys had multiple wives.

They sure did. Some of them married close relatives, too.

Still, my whole life it gave me the willies to even contemplate polygamy. Self-righteously, I’d declare, “I’d never share my man!” like sex is the only aspect to a polygamous relationship.

Then I had kids.

She explains how her thinking started to change.

I think my husband was going a little crazy having different women living with us. But, I wondered, if they were cooking for him AND he could have sex with them, would he have been as annoyed? (Paging Dr. Freud.)

Probably not. But as the writer already noted, it is about more than sex. If her husband had spousal relationships with those other women, it would be completely different.

From there, she explains more of her discovery, before wrapping it up…

Sadly, I don’t see polygamy being legalized anytime soon.

It could be closer in Canada than in the US, but we’re closer than ever in recent times. We need to work towards full marriage equality, showing solidarity with everyone who is denied the freedom to marry.

The whole essay is worth a read, if you have the right sense of humor.

Positive Coverage of Poly Families

This TV station's report on polyamory includes video of two families. The story is from Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Today's debate is to legalize gay marriage. However, changing the definition of marriage for one group, could redefine it for others -- at least that's the hope for one family.

It is the hope of many, many families.

Like most couples, for Mike and Claire, it started with "I do." In time their love grew for each other and for another couple.

This married "quad" is redefining commitment. Its called polyamory. Claire says, "Polyamory means many loves, the ability to love more than one person."

Claire and Mike met Emily and Victor by chance online -- both liked each other's blog responses on relationships and the four agreed to meet.

Victor says, "We were just like they're really great people, let's see more of them, we started to, and it just grew from there."

This happens more than most people think.

Mike says, "What happens as far as sleeping arrangements, is Claire and Emily switch beds every other night, but Claire and Emily also sleep together too one night, because they need that bond as well."

As for the men, they are emotional spouses, but don't share beds. Like any other relationship, sex is just one aspect of daily life. The quad pools everything-- finances, chores, and decision making.

Why shouldn't they be able to make it legal, if that is what they want?

There are two children being raise in this family.

Claire says, "It actually bothers me deeply when people say my children are going to be negatively affected by my relationship, I think they really don't have a clue what goes on here."

Claire and Mike had the kids before the quad met. Claire says raising them as group means more homework help, love, and attention. Plus a divorce-free home.

That's a good point. So many children these days are being shuttled between two homes of two "monogamous" couples. I would think this quad is a better situation for children.

A trio is also included in the story.

Michael and Katie live together--but both date Monica. They're coming forward in hopes of making a social change.

Katie says, "As long as you're not infringing on anyone else's rights you should be able to do whatever is right for you."

They're speaking for others who want the government out of people's personal lives.

Katie says, "I don't think the government has any part of a relationships, who you love, regardless of if you're gay or straight, love one person or 100, the government shouldn't be able to put a name on that."

The quad shares the same view--they want marriage redefined--

Emily says, "I'd like to say I'm legally married to all three of them."

They should not be denied that right. That's why this blog is here. An adult should be free to pursue love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults.

Time to Get Modern

Bigwheel asked, “Why is incest illegal in most western countries?”

That’s a good question.

While I don't personally admit to having any incestual tendencies myself, I find it strange that consensual incest between two adults (note that the definition of incest will differ from place to place) is still illegal in most western nations.

While most might find it somewhat repulsive; personal or societal feelings of disgust should in no way influence the legality of what two consenting adults do in the bedroom. No doubt, had we listened to the majority consensus of what is 'disgusting' and therefore 'wrong', homosexual sex may never have been legalised either.

I know in the country I live, Australia, penalties for incest are potentially MUCH greater than most other developed nations out there. Yet in countries like Brazil, consensual incest is legal. In France, laws against incest were scrapped after the French revolution (along with laws against homosexuality) as a religious taboo; but were reintroduced within the last decade.

Why is incest still illegal?!

@ Golden. Please keep in mind that even same-sex incest, which bears no risk of reproduction, is still illegal. Furthermore, incestual sex in no way guarantees that a child will suffer a significant genetic abnormality, although the risks are higher. As well as this, we do have contraceptive items such as condoms available at most local supermarkets.

Kathy had the best answer…

Purely objectively... There is no reason for incest laws for adults. They originated in days when small, isolated communities tended to intermarry... repeatedly... leading to genetic abnormalities among the offspring.

But today, that is not a problem. And a biologically related couple interested in having children can have genetic testing to see if a child would be at risk. If it's inadvisable, then we have birth control options that didn't exist in the "old days." If they don't carry recessive genes, it would be safe to have children. And they can find all this out beforehand.

Thank you, Kathy.

No answer to the question was able to explain why consanguineous sex between consenting adults should be illegal.

Time and time again, this question is asked, and time and time again, there’s no good response justifying criminal penalties. We should keep asking the question, and keep pointing this out. Minds are being changed, and the more minds that are changed, the more we will move towards equality and the more consanguinamory can be enjoyed without fear.

Yes, People Are Still Prosecuted For Consensual Sex

The Other McCain has an update on Columbia University Professor David Epstein, who was arrested in December and charged with having consensual sex with an adult woman for three to four years. Yes, that is a crime where he lives because the woman is his daughter. This has never been any information to indicate this was anything but a consensual consanguinamorous relationship.

One of our readers has obtained court documents (for Case #2010NY090162) indicating that Epstein copped a plea to a misdemeanor charge of attempted incest.

It is ridiculous that attempting to have consensual sex is even a crime.

Is Epstein’s behavior something that the university tolerates or approves?

Why would a decent university care if one of their employees is having consensual sex with someone else?

There are some noteworthy comments noted below.

The Unicorn

While I’m dreaming of things I’d like to see on network television, permit me this dream that has less of a chance of happening than a Donald Trump Presidency.

So here in the states, we’ve kicked off another season of the matchmaking show, “The Bachelorette.” Here’s how it goes. An unmarried and supposedly available white woman goes on a bunch of dates with a bunch of unmarried and supposedly available white men (the season opener starts with a couple dozen.) Mind you, these dates always have cameras, microphones, bright lights, and production staff surrounding the participants. But over the course of mere weeks, thanks to these “dates” (and producer coaching), the number of men is whittled down to two, and then the woman chooses one, and they become a supposedly monogamous couple and live happily ever after. Only, most of these “couples” from this series (and the "The Bachelor," which is the same thing with one man and multiple women) don’t last very long.

Hey, but that’s okay. We’ll still pretend that it is a perfect monogamist fairy tale, even though there group dates and such and it is often implied that the star gets intimate with more than one of the prospects before choosing a partner from the finalists.

Anyway, I digressed. Here is what I’d like to see...

“The Unicorn”

I’d like to see the same premise used in “The Bachelorette” centered around a polyamorous male-female couple that is looking for a unicorn; a bisexual female to join their relationship. They could try to find a suitable unicorn for them (which, of course, means they are right for the unicorn, too) from a couple dozen legitimate candidates.

This show would be fascinating to a large audience, though I doubt ABC would ever touch it. It would be hard enough to get a cable network to do it. But then, I might have thought that same thing about “Sister Wives” a couple of years ago.

Of course, the candidates (and the couple) would be outing themselves to an international audience, and thus could risk all kinds of bullying. They could get fired from their jobs or worse. It's outrageous, but true. I'm happy to see shows like "Sister Wives" and other programming and news reports where people are willing to come out and change minds, but I understand those who do not want to risk it.

Law, Order, and Equality

The once-mighty “Law & Order” TV franchise could be winding down. Some more versions are going away, and the “Special Victims Unit,” although it could gain talent from the loss of the others to perhaps scare away some the sharks it has been attracting, will suffer from the departure of Christopher Meloni.

I have previously suggested that the powers behind the show should do some positive portrayals of consanguinamory. Maybe this is an indication that now is the time. If they’re going to go off the air in a year or two, why not do so in a blaze of glory? Increase the positive and educational portrayals of LGBT people and same-sex relationships, and get in some of poly people and polyamory, and consanguinamorous people and consanguinamory. Throw in more interracial and intergenerational relationships to really send the uptight and the bigoted over the edge. Who knows? It just might boost viewership, and I’m sure there are some advertisers willing to take the heat to support equality.

“Sister Wives” is making a difference, and I’m sure “SVU” has, too, but it can make even more of a difference.

Another Example of "Sister Wives" Changing Minds

The good that the show “Sister Wives” is accomplishing is again demonstrated by Jacqueline Bur’s “'Sister Wives' Episode Changes My Mind About Polygamy.”

I can't get through an episode of HBO's polygamy drama Big Love without yelling, "You women have been brainwashed!" at the TV, so I never thought I'd end up sympathizing with the cast of TLC's polygamy reality show Sister Wives: Patriarch Kody Brown and wives Meri, Janelle, Christine, and Robyn.

The difference, of course, is that "Big Love" was fictional.

Kody lost me right away when he called the idea of a woman with multiple husbands "vulgar."

It would be nice if he would express full solidarity instead of throwing polyandrists under the bus, but he isn’t alone. There are people in consanguinamorous relationships who throw poly people under the bus, there are LGBT people who throw the consanguinamorous people under the bus, and it is no surprise that there are polygynous people who would through polyandrists under the bus. We need solidarity so that we can get full marriage equality.

They seem like intelligent women, caring moms, and good friends to each other ... the only difference between us and them seems to be the mindset that husband-sharing is an acceptable option.

Polygyny, MFF triads, and other forms of “husband sharing” are acceptable options.

Last night's heartbreaking episode, however, made me realize that no matter how backward the notion of plural marriage may be, the legalization of polygamy seems like a good idea.

That’s very good! Thanks for the support of this freedom to marry.

She talks about the Browns enduring persecuting and having to flee law enforcement…

Watching those poor confused kids burst into tears every time they hear a police siren in the distance, well, that changed everything for me. Suddenly something clicked: Was this a present-day American reality show or a movie set in Nazi-era Germany? Hey, and wasn't the whole point of this country the escape of religious persecution?

It isn’t just religious persecution. It is denial of the freedom of association and an attempt to control our bodies. Neither the kids nor the adults should have to fear their own government will try to break up their family.

There were many comments left, some from allies, some from bigots, including people who say that grown women can’t possibly consent to polygyny.

Dannielle Richins is an ally…

Patrick Stuebing and Family Back in the News

German man Patrick Stuebing is back in the news, rightly pointing out that his rights were violated.

An incest dad who was jailed after he fathered four children with his sister is demanding compensation claiming his three year sentence was a breach of his human rights.

Patrick Stuebing, 34, from Leipzig, Germany, and his sister Susan sued the German government seeking 35,000 GBP compensation for the conviction under incest laws.

Now the European Court of Human Rights is to announce its verdict this week on the case which could affect similar laws in Britain and across the EU.

The court should defend the rights of adults to love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults.

Three of the couple's children have been taken into care by local social services and are now with foster parents.

The couple say they fell in love when they met for the first time as adults after locksmith Patrick - who had been adopted as a child - got back in contact with his real family.

Susan, 24, explained: "I hope this law will be overturned I just want to live with my family, and be left alone by the authorities and by the courts."

This consanguinamorous pair should be allowed to be together, to marry, and to raise their children. They should not be bullied.

Stand up for people like this family. Support Full Marriage Equality on Facebook.

Still No Good Reason for Laws Against Consensual Incest

Danz123 in London asked at The Student Room, “Should incest be legalised?”

As regular readers here know, we say adults should be able to pursue love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults, including close relatives. Consanguineous sex should not be a crime, and consanguinamory should be celebrated. Only abuse and assault, including child abuse, should be a crime when it comes to incest.

OK, so I know this subject has been debated, and a few threads have been made on it, but I came across this argument for legalising incestuous relationships, and I want to see how people who think it shouldn't be legal respond to this:

"People seem to assume a 100% probability that any children will have a severe genetic defect from an incestous relationship.

A litlle research will show that the closest possible relation will increase the defect rate 7 to 10 % above the backgound rate. Now, couples every day, with known genetic disorders or known carriers, try to have children that may have as much as a 50% chance of getting that defect. NOTHING is done to stop them, and in fact many applaude their "conviction" to TRY and have a good one.

So, if the reason is possible defects then either the law is wrong or it is based on something else.

I believe it is based on the "ewwwww", "gross" factor that is the knee jerk reaction most people have. Its true there is a psychological finding called the Westermarck Effect that contributes to that, but for those that arent affected, and there is no under age people involved then and its all consensual, who does it hurt?

You may not like it, but that shouldnt make it illegal."

Danz123 did a good job. Some allies chimed in. The “no” side consisted of the typical bad arguments, most common being “eew.”

Psyk, example, invoked Discredited Arguments #18 and 20.

Avoid Hurtful People

A quote from Victor, one of the most helpful people at the GSA forum…

Just because you're related to someone doesn't mean they can't be a complete ass. Just because you love someone doesn't mean they love you back.

Victor’s signature also includes this quote…

"The one that will not reason is a bigot; the one that cannot reason is an idiot and fool; but the one that dares not reason is a slave to the opinions of others."

Both statements are so true.

As with some people we’ve thought of as friends, someone we’re related to can be a hurtful, destructive, or irresponsible person. Just because we thought someone was a friend, or just because we’re related to someone doesn’t mean they won’t betray us. In addition to generally being hurtful people, they may also be bigoted and nonaccepting when it comes to our relationships or sexuality. You can struggle to find mutual love and happiness, only to experience rejection and even threats from the people you thought were your friends, or from family.

Or, we can find ourselves attracted to someone who is all wrong for us. Victor’s first statement was in regards to someone who is experiencing GSA for someone who is not being kind and responsible in return.

So what to do? Appreciate your true friends, especially the ones to whom you happen to be related. Do what you can to give more of yourself to them, and as little of yourself as possible to the destructive people.

A special thanks to all allies for full marriage equality.

His Mother Arouses Him

Vaish Navi made a plea at Yahoo Answers, which seems to have many good discussions erased by the powers that be…

Help me from mom incest thoughts?

i have incest thoughts about my mom somtimes.. cause i saw her newly nowadays.. frm d childhood i wasnt stay with my mom..i stayed in for schooling and came home now for higher studies.. her acts towards me makes me horny coz her casual behaviour to me as a son was also new to me..lik touching and kissing me.. wat can i do to avoid those thoughts.

The way I read this is that he essentually was raised apart from his mother, and now one or both of them may be experiencing Genetic Sexual Attraction, or he is experiencing enough attraction or such little recognition of her as a mothering figure that her actions arouse him. Her touching and kissing could be entirely motherly in her mind, or maybe something more. He ends his plea asking for what he can do to avoid sexual thoughts towards his mother.

I have to wonder if he is simply feeling conflicted because of laws or prejudice against consanguinamory. Either he doesn’t want to entertain such thoughts, or he does but feels conflicted. Either way, prejudice against consanguinamory is part of the problem, because it makes it more difficult for him to sort through his feelings.

There were a few responses.

Kathleen…

Well it is normal for a young boy to have thoughts like that for his mom. There are studies that have proven that a young man can be physically attracted to his mom with out it being weird. It will pass sooner or later.

Sounds like he is an adult now. It may or may not pass.

bill…

Nothing...I hesitate to say it is "normal" it just isn't as uncommon as you might think.

Just tell her you aren't "comfortable" with the touching and kissing.You don't have to tell her HOW it makes you uncomfortable, just that it does.

As time passes and you are more familiar with her in a motherly role hopefully these feelings will pass. If not then you may want to talk to a counselor

If they have genuine attraction to each other, they may want to explore that; it could be beneficial to do so.

Sadly, the responses disparaged the idea of consanguinamory.

Someone who finds themselves in this or similar situations should think about why they are feeling conflicted. Depending on someone’s place in life, there are some good reasons to avoid certain relationships or sex with certain people. But there are scenarios where a young man in this situation should consider exploring this further and not allow the prejudice of others or unjust laws to interfere.

The Making of an Ally

Cronos explains how he came to accept that it is fine for people to enjoy consanguinamory (incest). It happened while he was attending a university and shared an apartment with a female student with whom he had previously befriended.

I had an off-campus apartment and she sublet the other bedroom as my roommates had gone home for the summer.

My biggest challenge at the time came when her younger brother came to stay with us for a week for an open house at the university to see if he liked the school. My roommates had 2 beds in the master bedroom so he stayed with her there. One day, early in the week, my workout class was cut short due to A/C failure at the gym so I caught the off-campus shuttle and went home. The bus stop was placed such that it was easier to cut through the back of the apartment complex. Our ground-floor apartment had a huge privacy fence but the trees made it easier to hop. I dropped down onto our patio and there, through the glass sliding doors, I saw my friend riding her brother on the couch. It was a moment where my mind had trouble registering what I was seeing. It also took them a moment to register the sound/movement when I dropped down.

Did he scream? Did he call them names? Did he call the police? No, they all handled it like mature adults. Imagine that!

Poly, Gay, and Happy

Wintersong Tashlin has a great blog entry explaining his life as a polyamorous gay man. The gist of it is…

Being polyamorous is pretty damn awesome.

But he does offer a whole paragraph of disclaimers, ending with…

And finally, yes I am well aware that many of you/your mom, BFF, hairdresser, dentist, etc have tried poly and had it go badly. To that issue I will simply say this: if everyone gave up on a relationship dynamic after having one or two bad experiences not only would no one be in monogamous relationships either, I doubt we would even be a nation of lonely masturbators.

Good point. So what does his polyamory look like?

I have a husband. I actually used to have two of them, and hopefully will someday again. What "husband" in this case means is that we live together and share just about every aspect of our lives with each other. My husband Fire, and I have been together for about twelve years now, and intended to be in a multi-partner marriage from the very start. About two and half years after we got together we entered into a relationship with Evan, which lasted for just over eight years before he chose to divorce us. As the three of us before did, Fire and I share a house, bills, the care and feeding of an adorable dog, and other joys and duties found in traditionally "married" relationships. Even when there were three of us, it was remarkably "normal" by many of the yardsticks by which marriages are measured.

However, outside of our marriage, Fire and I have other intimate relationships that can take many forms.

He also expresses weariness of being thrown under the bus by those who deny solidarity…

Polyamorous people, especially queer ones, are boogymen at the moment. Every time the anti-gay right brings us out as part of the "slippery slope" argument against same-sex-marriage, the representatives from Gay Inc are quick to take offense and clarify that we LGBTs are just as against that sort of thing as they are. I understand the political calculations perfectly well, but I have to say that I am growing tired of my family being demonized from both sides. Intellectually, I understand why this is, but I think it is important for us to make our voices hear once in a while.

Gays and lesbians should have the freedom to marry, including the polygamous freedom to marry, and the consanguineous freedom to marry. That's why we need full marriage equality.

Looking Down Their Noses at Genetic Sexual Attraction

There’s an adoption search and reunion advice blog that, unfortunately, doesn’t take Genetic Sexual Attraction seriously.

Hi, I’m an adoptive mother who recently stumbled on your blog. Our 25-year-old is currently searching for her birthparents with our blessing. Or should I say “my” blessing because her father has been lukewarm about it and then last weekend all hell broke loose when he announced that he had been doing research about “genetic sexual attraction”. Our daughter took it in stride and told him it was the farthest thing from her mind but I guess he read the Wikipedia entry on GSA where they recount a four-year incestuous relationship between Kathryn Harrison and her biological father. Needless to say, this is causing some friction because my husband is adamant this is something we should be worried about.

Unless their daughter is in a closed relationship and has children in that relationship, they shouldn’t be worried about GSA. They should only be concerned the same way they would be about any relationship their daughter would have; that her lover or lovers treat her right. Even then, her partners, and her friends, are her choice.

How serious do you think GSA is?

GSA is real and causes some real problems for people in closed relationships, or who otherwise find the feelings to be a problem. Then there’s the bigotry and unjust laws that applied to consanguineous sex.

Do you have any suggestions for peeling my husband off the ceiling?

If she had asked me, I would have told her to discuss with her husband that their daughter is an adult and has to make her own decisions about her relationships, and to get over the fact that their daughter is also a sexual being and is likely going to have sex (or is having sex.) That is probably his real issue, along with perhaps what many adoptive parents have an issue with; fearing their child will no longer honor them as parents. If they were good parents, and their daughter is a good person, this will not be a problem. If their daughter is rotten, they would be better off with less contact anyway.

From the response given by Latis…

First of all, I can understand why you’re finding it disturbing to read about genetic sexual attraction—all inappropriate sexual activity or relationships are disturbing to read about!

Shall we determine whether or not your sex life is inappropriate, Latis?

From the response given by Artemis…

I think we can alleviate some of your husband’s fears about genetic sexual attraction. While it has happened, it is rare, and not really something for anyone going into reunion to worry about.

GSA is not rare. Conservative estimates have one person experiencing GSA in 25% of reunions. Of course, it takes at least two to tango. But it happens often enough that it should not be something that is minimized or ignored by a reunion blog.

It is form of incest, no more common in normal reunions than incest is in normal families that have remained together.

Again, consanguineous sexual activity is not uncommon.

It is unfortunate a few sensational and shocking cases have garnered so much publicity, and that some people misinterpret fleeting thoughts and impulses as something dangerous and twisted.

GSA isn’t twisted, but it isn’t just fleeting thoughts or impulses, either. The response then goes on to disrespect Barbara Gonyo.

I have been involved for many years in support groups around reunion, and have never personally met anyone for whom this was a real problem.

You haven’t met someone who told you. And why would they? You don’t sound very helpful about this issue. For help, people can go to places like this blog or the GSA forum.

GSA is real and can be a problem in the following situations:

1. One person in a reunion is experiencing it, and another isn’t. Isn’t it always problematic when two people are interacting and one is intensely attracted to the other, but the other isn’t attracted in kind?

2. The feelings are mutual, but reunited do not want to act on it. There are many reasons they may not want to act on their mutual attraction. Maybe they simply don’t want to “go there,” or go there anymore. Maybe they are feeling the external pressures not to go there. Maybe at least one of them is in a closed relationship.

3. They’re not going there, but others, such as a spouse, are sill hurt, upset, or worried or not understanding.

Bullying and discriminatory laws only make the situation worse. Adults who want to be together should have that right. Those who want help to deal with their feelings should be able to ask for it and get it, not dismissals and slurs.

Thank You, Keith Marshall

Keith Marshall, referencing the Canadian poly trial, stands up for the polygamous freedom to marry.

In truth, any law banning polygamy harms society by weakening individual liberty and perpetuating a state-controlled family model, two concepts that should be rejected by Canadians.

And by Americans or anyone else.

The same law declaring polygamy illegal has been on the books for more than 120 years. Championed by our first Prime Minister John A. MacDonald, its sole purpose was to drive out or assimilate Mormons settling in Canada during the late 1800s.

That’s religious discrimination.

Our laws, however, should neither be based on the bigoted ideas of the 19th century nor on a morally bankrupt prime minister who repeatedly showed up to parliament drunk. Canadians should no longer accept legal moralism as a reason to control the relationships of consenting adults.

Couldn’t have written it better myself.

Go read it.

Jancis M. Andrews commented…

What is Keith Marshall talking about? He is an ideologue who obviously has not researched the subject of polygamy. Had he done so he would know that this ancient patriarchal practice, which comes to us from the days when women were considered mere chattels, cruelly discriminates against women.

Legalizing polygamy would allow all-female marriages, as well as polyandry. Much on Andrews’ comment assumes polygyny-only, and that polygyny is nonconsensual at that.

The "extra wives" and their children in polygamy (in reality, concubines in a harem) are not entitled to share in the "husband's" health insurance, dental insurance, life insurance, spousal pensions, and taxation benefits,

Wouldn’t legalizing polygamy change that?

Sok Puppette replied to Andrews…

You also know, or should by now, that polyandry and equal relationships really exist. In fact, the patriarchal practices you rant against are a MINORITY. Anybody who's properly "researched the subject" knows that. Looking for stuff to support your prejudices isn't "research".

Canada should keep moving towards full marriage equality.

They Are Consenting Adults

A recent pair of episodes of the Steve Wilkos Show (a spin-off of the Jerry Spring Show) has caused some “incest” stir online, prompting discussions about consanguineous sex and consanguinamory. Here’s something from Tracie Egan Morrissey at Jezebel.

Recently The Steve Wilkos show (what, you haven't heard of it?) aired a two-part story about a father and his 18-year-old daughter who had been estranged during the girl's childhood but reconnected through MySpace when the daughter, Britney, became an adult. They struck up a romantic relationship and are now calling themselves boyfriend and girlfriend.

Good for them.

The footage-which features Britney and her father, Morgan, in a deep French kiss when he first walks onto the stage-is disturbing to say the least, but apparently it gets worse. In the intro to the segment, Wilkos mentions that the couple "provided proof" that they were in a sexual relationship, which one source tells us was "video documentation" and that the "dad had filmed it."

People take video of themselves having sex all of the time. Morrissey may not want to see them kiss, but there are plenty of people who don’t want to see nonconsanguineous heterosexual couples kiss, either.

On part two of the incest show, Britney suspected she was pregnant with her father's child, saying to Wilkos, "How do you know if it's gonna come out lookin' all weird?" (Later in the episode, it was revealed that she was not. Exhale.)

Most children born to consanguineous parents are fine.

There were plenty of comments left about this.

A Small Turnip…

All accounts of incest make me feel cold and sad, but there's something especially gut-twisting about sexual relationships between fathers and daughters.

Some people say the same thing about all interracial relationships.

I think it's the power differential, really.

Ah. Discredited Argument #20.

Even if both parties emphatically declare that the relationship is entirely consensual, there's still that low gong in your heart that knows that it just isn't possible.

Not my heart. But I sometimes see couples together and I can’t make sense of it, either because one person seems so disagreeable or otherwise unattractive. Yet I would never try to pass a law or a judgment that says it couldn’t possibly be consensual. Some people insist that no man could possibly want to be monogamous, so no man can really consent to monogamy, right? Only, it isn’t true.

How, as a parent--even a long-estranged parent--can you be weak and cruel enough to damage your child in that way?

What is the damage? If you find sex is damaging, perhaps you aren’t doing it right.

France's First Lady Carla Bruni

I have to confess I hadn’t given her too much notice before. I knew she’s beautiful, but it sounds like she’s a generally interesting person.

Bruni's porcelain skin, slender frame and feline gaze helped make her one of the world's most successful models in the 1990s. As her modeling career waned, she turned her hand to music as a singer-songwriter. She has three albums under her belt, and said last February she planned to make a cover version in her native Italian of one of France's most patriotic songs.

But that’s not the information I found most interesting. This is…

Bruni has been linked to a string of famous men, including British musicians Eric Clapton and Mick Jagger, U.S. property tycoon Donald Trump and former French Socialist prime minister Laurent Fabius.

She is also widely reported to have dated the French publisher Jean-Paul Enthoven before starting a relationship with his son, philosopher Raphael Enthoven, whom she married and with whom she has a son.

Bruni has not always been a fan of marriage. "I'm monogamous from time to time, but I prefer polygamy and polyandry," she told the Figaro Madame magazine in 2007, adding: "Love lasts a long time, but burning desire -- two or three weeks."

I would not classify that as her not being a fan of marriage. Polygamy, which may mean polyandry, can be marriage. Journalists should not fall into the trap that marriage = monogamy. Even when it is legally that way in places like France, it is common for politicians and others to openly have lovers, and their spouses to have lovers.

Linda Had a Good Mother’s Day

For those of you who haven't yet done so, check out this page. It gives background on Linda, Matthew, and Melissa (not their real names). I asked Linda about her Mother's Day, and she gave me permission to post our chat.

So how was your Mother’s Day?

Linda: It was quite a celebration, actually. ;-)


How does that work for all of you, exactly? You don’t have the greeting card Mother’s Day situation going on.

Linda: As much as I had wanted to, I know I didn’t raise them. They don't call me Mom. But I did give them life and I’ll gladly accept credit for that. It has been so nice getting to know them as adults and seeing the people they’ve become. They want to acknowledge me on Mother’s Day, and I’m not going to turn that down. I’ve encouraged them to also show their appreciation and respect for the people who’ve raised them, including for Father’s Day, birthdays, and holidays. Mother’s Day is no different.


What did Matthew and Melissa do for you to mark the day?

Linda: There was a greeting card! They just made it themselves. It was a great day. They insisted I sleep in, then brought me breakfast in bed with the card they created together, along with a couple of presents. They wouldn’t let me lift a finger around the house all day. And they didn’t leave any of it for me to do on Monday.


Sounds like a regular Mother's Day. That doesn’t sound atypical at all.

Linda: Well, no, but there’s much more. They have such busy lives and we were apart for so many years that the best thing they could give me was simply time together. So we went for a bit of a hike and enjoyed a picnic they had put together for lunch.

Once we got back home, they drew me a bath. Then they had a professional masseuse come in and give me this really great massage, just incredibly relaxing.

For dinner, they had my favorite delivered.


And…?

Woman Arrested For Leaving Husband

In Egypt...

Abeer Talaat Fakhry, 26, was living with her Christian husband in the southern city of Assiut when she ran away from home, converted to Islam and "married" Muslim Yassin Thabet, the source said.

I’m not so familiar with Egyptian law. Is it possible for a woman, I mean actually possible in reality and not just theory, to divorce her husband? To me, the freedom to divorce or not marry at all, along with gender equality, are ingredients to full marriage equality.

Hundreds of ultra-conservative Muslims known as Salafists attacked a church in the poor Cairo district of Imbaba on Saturday, spurred on by rumours that Fakhry had converted to Islam and was being held there against her will.

Violence is hardly the answer to a situation like this, other than to rescue someone who is being held against her will.

But the source said Fakhry was actually with her new "husband" in a house next door to the church and that she had fled when the clashes began.

The largest Christian community in Egypt is that of the Copts, in whose church divorce is extremely difficult to obtain.

Ah. Well, if the church wouldn’t recognize her divorce, that shouldn’t stop the government from recognizing it.

There have been a number of cases in which unhappy women have left their husbands, converted to Islam and "married" Muslims, but those marriages are not recognised in law.

That’s too bad. I’m not a Muslim nor am I partial to Islam, but if that is what the women freely choose they should be allowed their new marriages.

Hence, the charge that Fakhry had committed polyandry, or having more than one husband.

It’s very simple. Allow her to divorce, and she won’t be committing polyandry against her first husband’s will. Consensual polyandry, however, is another story and shouldn’t be a crime. Either way, she shouldn’t be arrested in this case. Perhaps escorted for her own protection, but not arrested.

Stand Up Against Homophobia

Today is the International Day Against Homophobia. You may not be LGBT, but there are people in your life who are, whether you know it or not. Stand up against homophobia and for the rights of every person to be themselves.

Another Pespective on the FLDS Polygamy Issue

Macha, who has been kind enough to leave some comments here, has a great blog to check out. In this entry, Macha points out that polygamy isn't the problem when it comes to groups like some FLDS communities.

I realized then, that it's not polygamy. Polygamy is not the problem. It's the way it's practiced. It's the other harmful and abusive practices and beliefs mixed in with polygamy.

Later…

While polygamy can be abusive, dehumanizing, and unhealthy, so can monogamy. So can heterosexual relationships, homosexual relationships, polyamorous relationships, familial relationships, friendships, married and unmarried relationships. ANY relationship. The problem with groups like the FLDS is not that men marry and have sex with more than one woman.

Read it all. I’m not here to condemn (or defend) all FLDS communities. Macha has read much more about them than I have. But what was important to me was someone else seeing that polygamy is not to blame for domestic violence of child abuse in FLDS communities, or any polygamous community. If multiple adult women freely choose to marry one adult man and everyone is treated with respect and kindness, that is not a problem.



Hold abusers accountable. It is easier to do so when victims and potential witnesses aren’t turned into criminals simply because of their marriage. That is just one reason why full marriage equality is important.

Marrying For Love

Another report out of India, this time from New Delhi on the death of Mahendra Singh Tikait, who was apparently quite active in organizing mass protests.

He had the support of the farmer community, largely dominated by Jats in western Uttar Pradesh and still deeply wedded to their medieval social tradition of not allowing marriages within the same gotra.

And Tikait rose up to even oppose the Supreme Court for holding such marriages valid.

"We live by a moral code where honour has to be protected at any cost. Same-gotra marriages are incestuous, No society would accept it. Why do you expect us to do so? Incest violates 'maryada' (honour) and villagers would kill or be killed to protect their maryada," he said in a TV interview.

Tikait, as choudhary of the Baliyan Khap, declared that "love marriages are dirty...only whores can choose their partners".

Wow!

The Supreme Court made the right decision. It is too bad Tikait opposed love. But in India, as with so many other places in the world, more freedom is being gained for someone to marry the person or persons he or she loves, rather than being forced to marry to benefit others, or denied marriage entirely. Those who want to be traditional should certainly be allowed, as long as everyone involved consents, but others should be able to leave traditions behind to pursue what works better for them.

Hostility Towards Grandfather-Granddaughter Couple

I think this story is out of India. Perhaps something was lost in translation, or the article simply doesn’t have enough information.

A case of incestuous relation, 53year old man, who is related as a grandfather, has reportedly gone hiding along with a 33-year maiden.

How could he have become a grandfather at age 20? My guess is he didn’t, and rather is or was married to the woman’s grandmother, who would be older. Or perhaps the ages listed are wrong, but you’d think the news source would have caught that. It is also a possibility, I suppose, that the man’s daughter or son married an older spouse who already had this daughter. Either way, I’m thinking they are related through a marriage, not by blood.

Denouncing such relationship, which is considered to be against social mores, the local residents have decided to banish the couple from the locality.

Where’s the love?

Father of the missing maiden has lodged a complaint with the local club (United Pioneer Club) in this regard.

Local club? Poker club? Dance club? Service club?

Based on the testimonials of some eyewitnesses who saw them (grandfather and granddaughter) going together, the volunteers of the Club served an ultimatum to the family members of Ibomcha for producing the missing incestuous couple within May 11 .

As the missing incestuous couple could not be produced even after expiry of the deadline, a meeting of the locality has decided to banish them from the locality and taken up strong action against anyone found sheltering them, sports secretary of the Club RK Manisana has informed.

Sports secretary? The couple must have quite the sex life if this falls under “sports.” Seriously, I hope the couple is allowed their happiness.

Sperm Donation and Consanguineous Sex

Prompted by the recent screening of a documentary, there’s this article on sperm donation and the possibilities of resulting consanguineous sex.

There are no regulations that limit the number of times a man can donate sperm, nor the number of times his sperm is used, according to Dr. Peter Schlegel, chairman of urology and professor of reproductive medicine at the Weill Medical College of Cornell University in New York. Making as many as four donations per week is "an acceptable practice from a medical standpoint," he says, but adds that based on population studies, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine now recommends that the number of children from an individual donor in a geographical area not exceed 10. "This limits the risk of a brother and sister meeting and marrying" without realizing they are related, Schlegel says.

Many people struggle with Genetic Sexual Attraction as a result of meeting (or being re-introduced to) a close biological relative or relatives after puberty, especially if one or more of them are married or otherwise have vows or lives with others that would make getting involved with each other problematic. Others are free, meet, fall in love, and could live full, happy lives together if they weren’t being harassed by bigots or threated with hateful laws.

There have been surprise meetings of siblings that sparked fears of accidental incest: In South Australia, one man's sperm was reportedly used to produce 29 children, most of whom came to live in the city of Adelaide (population 1.2 million). With more than 1 million children of donors alive today, a documented case of accidental incest would seem to be inevitable, Schlegel says.

But what about the genetics?

Donor sperm is frequently screened for common genetic mutations that can cause serious diseases, such as sickle cell anemia, Tay-Sachs disease and cystic fibrosis, Schlegel says. However, not all genetic disorders can be screened for, and there have been case reports in the medical literature of clusters of patients with rare blood disorders and kidney abnormalities that were traced back to a handful of prodigious donors.

Something that occurs to me is that the better the genetic screening gets, the more genetic advantage may develop when children of donors get together, close relatives or not, because they won’t be carrying the risky genes.

More Freedom to Marry

Someone used Yahoo Answers to ask, “Why gay marriage is okay while polygamy isn't?”

I reject the premise of the question. Polygamy is okay.

Also, that two people can legally marry, regardless of their genders, isn’t the same thing as whether or not one person (simultaneously) can marry two or more people, or three or more people can all marry each other. Both factors involve freedoms to marry, and all would be legal under full marriage equality.

Maybe what the person really meant was, “Why do some people think same-sex marriage between two people is okay, but polygamy isn’t” Or, “Why do some states and countries allow same-sex marriage between two people, but not polygamy?” The answer to that has to do with prejudices and how their legal systems work.

As one person answered…

Polygamy can be ok. It just depends on where you live in the world.

Another response was not so open…

because gay marriage is like straight marriage but they are different genders but polygamy is selfish and stupid in my opinion - its not real love if you love about 4 people.

I take it this person will never have more than one child, or a child simultaneous with having a significant other, since this person doesn’t believe it is possible to love more than one person?

An ally wrote…

I have no particular moral objection to polygamy, as long as no one is being pressured into it.

A bigot wrote…

It makes no sense. Gay marriage is just as morally wrong and incorrect as polygamy. If your going to make gay marriage legal, then open the door for all other immoral forms too.

No explanation as to why it is immoral to let people choose to marry each other. Typical.

Another person actually wrote…

Polygamy is very bad social policy and is equally illegal for everyone.

Monogamy isn't perfect, but it has the best track record, especially in free democratic countries.

How can someone write that with a straight face? Probably can’t. This person does support the same-sex freedom to marry, but throws poly people under the bus…

Gays have shown they are quite interested and capable of being married monogamously, as much as any straights.

Polygamists have a long history of child abuse, welfare fraud, etc.

Most of child abuse and welfare fraud is perpetrated by people who claim to be monogamists. I don’t blame monogamy. Others shouldn’t blame polygamy. The welfare fraud charge is ridiculous. Someone legally married to someone with an income is less likely to be given welfare. Deny them the freedom to marry, and they are more likely to be eligible for welfare.

And another person who is looking for the bus...

A gay marriage is based on the feeling of true love just like a straight marriage (at least it's supposed to be that way in both cases). Polygamy more seems to be the idea of owning partners, an idea I can't relate to love.

Polygamy doesn’t involve “ownership” unless someone is talking about role-play or a fetish or a kink. This person then, ironically, points out that some polygynous people throw LGBT people under the bus…

Still there are enough countries and religions allowing polygamy, funny enough very often the same that see homosexual love as immoral or perverted. Mostly it's men owning several women, which in my eyes is debasing females.

In those countries, the men “own” the women with or without polygyny. I’m all for gender equality. Polygamy is not antithetical to gender equality.

Not a Sister Wife

Larisa Rose, in “Sugar, Spice, and the Disposing of Mice,” discusses gender roles and stereotypes, and explains why she would not want a polygynous marriage…

You’d think that polygamy, then, would multiply the benefits. But have you seen Sister Wives? The benefits of group love definitely seem to be outweighed by jealousy. It gives me the heebie-jeebies to share a toilet with multiple people— sharing a penis is out of the question.

Most people who have seen the show report the opposite impression; the benefits outweigh the jealousy, at least in the Brown family. But then, consider the tone of Rose’s essay, which includes…

I know many women consider the ability to bear children a privilege, or even a miracle, but that’s one job I Do. Not. Want. First of all, it sounds painful and exhausting. Secondly, now that we’re Modern Women Who Can Have It All, we’re expected to bounce back, rebuild our bangin’ bods and become MILFs after giving birth.

Most women spend their entire postpubescent lives waging a battle of bulges, cutting calories, hitting the gym and squeezing into Spanx in an effort to control their dangerous curves. Pregnancy requires that a woman surrender her waistline to her growing child’s need for elbow room. It’s a perfectly reasonable sacrifice to give up your bikini belly for a new life, but I’d feel like I had to Zumba out of the delivery room for fear of not earning my yummy-mummy badge.

Isn’t it great that women can choose whether or not they will be giving birth? Wouldn’t it be great if they could also choose the marriage that is best for them, if they want to marry at all?

Another Pespective on the FLDS Polygamy Issue

Macha, who has been kind enough to leave some comments here, has a great blog to check out. In this entry, Macha points out that polygamy isn't the problem when it comes to groups like some FLDS communities.

I realized then, that it's not polygamy. Polygamy is not the problem. It's the way it's practiced. It's the other harmful and abusive practices and beliefs mixed in with polygamy.

Later…

While polygamy can be abusive, dehumanizing, and unhealthy, so can monogamy. So can heterosexual relationships, homosexual relationships, polyamorous relationships, familial relationships, friendships, married and unmarried relationships. ANY relationship. The problem with groups like the FLDS is not that men marry and have sex with more than one woman.

Read it all. I’m not here to condemn (or defend) all FLDS communities. Macha has read much more about them than I have. But what was important to me was someone else seeing that polygamy is not to blame for domestic violence of child abuse in FLDS communities, or any polygamous community. If multiple adult women freely choose to marry one adult man and everyone is treated with respect and kindness, that is not a problem.

Hold abusers accountable. It is easier to do so when victims and potential witnesses aren’t turned into criminals simply because of their marriage. That is just one reason why full marriage equality is important.

Seeing Can Be Understanding

Polyamory in the 21st Century, on Facebook, called my attention to this chart, The Varieties of Intimate Relationship.

There certainly are many different forms of intimate relationships. Each adult should be free to pursue what’s best for him or her. It is ridiculous to try, through law and bullying, to force people into supposedly monogamous relationships if that isn’t what is best for them.

Feminist Polygamy

Katherine Butler writes about the possibility of feminist polygamy (polygyny, really.)

But polygamists who style themselves more modern assert that their lifestyle affords them freedom outside the home, giving them the ultimate feminist family. Journalist and attorney Elizabeth Joseph of Big Water, Utah, is perhaps one of the most vocal supporters of the idea of a feminist polygamist. She is famously quoted in a speech given in 1997 to the Utah chapter of the National Organization for Women. According to Elizabeth, “If polygamy didn’t exist, the modern American woman would have invented it.” As she went on to explain in her speech entitled Polygamy: The Ultimate Feminist Lifestyle, “[Polygamy] provides me the environment and opportunity to maximize my female potential without all the tradeoffs and compromises that attend monogamy. The women in my family are friends. You don’t share two decades of experience, and a man, without those friendships becoming very special.”

While apparently generally accepting of the idea that polygyny can be feminist, she expresses reservations, noting…

It’s not her husband that is making dinner or putting the kids to bed. It’s another woman. It seems like modern polygamy takes trappings of the feminist movement but still hangs them about a world where partnerships are still defined by traditional roles.

There is no reason why the husband can’t make dinner or put the kids to bed. When people work out their family roles for themselves, though, some are going to freely choose “traditional” roles.

She also cites “Sister Wives,” adding to the evidence that the show is having a positive effect for full marriage equality.

I maintain that polygyny can be feminist. And certainly, full marriage equality, which allows for polyandry and for two, three, or more women to marry without the involvement of a man, is feminist.

Choose Love Over Prejudice

I have written before about what a great blog Polly has, detailing her life as a polyamorous mom. Recently, she and one her husbands went to court about a restraining order against his mother, Millie, who mistakenly thought the judge would be as bigoted as she is towards polyamory.

Millie really seemed to think that polyamory would make the judge freak out and dismiss the whole case, or something. But the judge didn't bat an eye. And we talked about what a relief it was, and how we all made it without passing out.

For those of you who wonder if the world will end if you have to defend your poly family in court someday - I just walked in that nightmare. And I came out on the other side, vindicated and whole. Our family has the right to be as we are, without being harassed by crazy ladies. For the first time in a year and a half, I can breathe deeply and freely, knowing that we will not be harassed without consequence again.

You can tell from reading her blog what kind of a person, wife, and mother Polly is, and I’m happy for her.

If I had been talking with Millie, I would have told her it doesn’t matter what she thinks of polyamory or Polly. Polly is the mother of her grandchildren, the woman her son loves, and the woman who loves her son. If she wants to keep in contact with her grandchildren, she needs to be kind and respectful towards Polly and Polly’s other husband. It’s too late for Millie now. May others learn from this. You may not be comfortable with the marriages of your children or siblings, for whatever reason. Maybe they have more than one spouse, maybe their spouse is the same sex, maybe the spouse is of a different race, maybe the spouse is a close relative. But you can only make restrictions on your own love life, not the love life of others, and being kind and respectful goes a long way to keeping the peace. What matters is, how does that person or persons treat your loved one?

You may have to choose between your prejudice and your loved ones. Don’t make the wrong choice.

Uncle-Niece Case in India

The Supreme Court of India has upheld the death sentence for an “honor” killing in the case of a man who murdered his daughter because she loved someone.

Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra in their ruling said, “Honour killings are nothing but barbaric and brutal murders by bigoted persons with feudal minds.”

The judges said "In our opinion, honour killings, for whatever reason, come within the category of rarest of rare cases deserving death punishment.

"It is time to stamp out these barbaric, feudal practices which are a slur on our nation.”

That’s rather strong language, and I agree.

The court said this while upholding the death sentence awarded to Bhagwan Dass, who was convicted for killing his daughter after she deserted her husband Raju and began an incestuous relationship with her uncle.

And what happened to the uncle, hmmm?

This report and another I read do not indicate if her uncle was related to her through marriage or by blood, but it doesn’t make a difference. I would not support her cheating on her husband, but it shouldn’t be a crime and it shouldn’t be a matter of death, to be sure. It sounds like she left her husband for her uncle (instead of staying and cheating), which she should have been free to do. An adult should be able to remain unmarried, and an adult should be able to marry any consenting adults, and should be able to divorce, regardless of gender.

Hey Consanguinamorous People: Raise a Hand Online

If you hurry, you can add your answer (or support mine) to this question asked by Bryant B, “Do You Know Anyone Involved in Incestuous Activities? Where are they from?”

I would not get too specific about locations, given the laws against consanguineous sex, but if you want to chime in, please do. There were a few answers there before I left mine.

Brooke…

Yes I have sex with my father every friday

and I'm from the south go figure.

Bunge…

I once knew a bloke who used to have sex with his daughter regularly.. She died some years back and he died a few years later..
That was in South Australia..

Most people know someone who has been involved with, or is currently having sex with, a close relative. Most people involved in consanguineous sex keep quiet about it due to laws and general prejudice.

What's Wrong With Consanguineous Sex?

At DearCupid, a US female age 18-21 cites HBO’s Game of Thrones and a discussion on IMDb as her inspiration to ask “What is wrong with incest?”

I'm vehemently against it, because children born from it are often severely handicapped.

This was the most cited objection. It is Discredited Argument #18.

Also the idea of having sex with a sibling repulses me.

Discredited Argument #1.

Ofcourse this also has to do with the way I was raised and I wonder if I would still be so opposed to it if that view hadn't been imposed on me from the moment I was born.

Probably not.

It seems a lot of people are for it, as long as it's between two consenting adults and no children are born because of it.

It is fine if it is more than two, too.

SO, is incest going to be socially accepted in the future, like homosexuality, or do you think these two things are incomparable?

The two things are different, of course, in that they are different category variations. Sex can be heterosexual and nonconsanguineous, heterosexual and consanguineous, homosexual and consanguineous, or homosexual and nonconsanguineous. They are linked in that both gay sex and consanguineous sex has been deemed unacceptable by the sex police.

DanceInTheDark (Canadian female)…

If Incest was alright, I think more people would be attracted to their siblings.

Discredited Argument #3. By that reasoning, gay relationships wouldn’t be “alright,” either.

TasteofIndia (US female)…

Honestly, I guess if two siblings want to get married and opt out of children (or adopt, or surrogate), I say let them. There marriage wouldn't hurt me or effect my life, though I may feel uneasy about it myself.

This kind of qualified support, which is common, is better than nothing. But people need to realize that people have reproductive rights, and there are children born to the consanguinamorous who are fine or healthier than average.

We need more allies to speak up in discussions like that one. The answer to the original question is "nothing." Child abuse is wrong. Rape is wrong. Cheating is wrong. Consensual sex isn't wrong.

Happy Mother's Day!

For all of you mothers out there, may your day be a good one and may you have your heart’s desire.

For all of you with a mother (or mother of your children) to love, in whatever form that takes, do what you can to make it a special day for her.

I look forward to the day when every mother has the freedom to marry the person or people she loves.

Much More Good Than Harm

At Answerbag, someone asked, “Is incest ALWAYS harmful?”

Certainly not; consensual incest (consanguineous sex) is rarely harmful, in an of itself.

Just curious if others think that, at least to some extent, guilty feelings about incestuous relationships is taught rather than instinctive.

They are mostly taught. Someone might not have an attraction to, or regard for, any of their family members, and such people would naturally feel guilty if they lead someone else on, but the same can be said about sex in general. Guilty feelings about caring, consensual sex are taught.

Certainly, there ARE abusive incestuous relationships and we DO NOT condone such activity.

I don’t condone any abusive relationship.

But does incestuous sex HAVE to be "damaging" to either party involved?

Consensual consanguineous sex is usually not damaging, especially if you don’t consider bigoted attitudes by outsiders and harmful laws.

troubled_senario answered…

Incest is becoming more accepted just as gay lifestyle is now acceptable.

There isn’t really a gay lifestyle. Gays and lesbians are diverse, just like the hetero population; the only thing they have in common is they are attracted to the same gender as themselves.

It is seldom harmful if not forced on the family member no more than any other sexual contact with no relationship.

Some consanguineous sex is part of lasting consanguinamorous relationship.

I know of a number of incestuous families and all members seem to be happy and well adjusted. No damage evident anywhere.

Thank you. Me too.

brujito…

i've had several incest experimentations, mom, sis, aunt and brother. i don't think they effected me personally. i'm married now with 3 kids. what it did do was open my eyes to different sexual experiences. i guess it didn't cause harm cause it wasn't violent or forced

ILPadrino…

There is nothing wrong with it. Mother/son sex has a 70% positive outcome. Sibling sex has an almost 100% positive outcome and Father/Daughter is rated at about 20% but researchers believe the results are skewed because the daughter feel she will be condemned by society harsher. The beliefe it is at least 40% positive and most likely over 50%

I’d like to know the source of those statistics.

See the recently added page that deals with the negatives and benefits of consanguineous sex.

Addressing Some Concerns of Polygyny

In “Polygamy, A Woe Or a Blessing? A Male View,” Mohammed Hashem writes of Muslim polygyny…

I believe that polygamy brings with it minimal concerns and in saying that, I suggest consistent planning, and the rejection of any negative external forces intruding in on the families’ life. It is better to remain determined, and follow a stable agenda, which will in turn allow the souls of the individuals to connect as one.

In saying that, let us not lose sight in identifying some of the problems that polygamy could present; there is the religious legality of the marriage and there is the unfortunate misuse of this right by some men.

Among those, he lists…

Mistrust from the one of the wives, who believes love cannot be shared

The agony of the jealously among co-wives, which sometimes conveys negative messages to the children.

Careless heads of family who are eager for polygamy, but have no real commitment and responsibility to sustain it.

External forces, like friends and advisers who take sides to fuel any misunderstanding within the family

Of course, this blog supports full marriage equality, which includes the polygygnous freedom to marry, but also the polyandrous freedom to marry and other forms of polygamy, regardless of religion. Full marriage equality also carries with it gender equality and the freedom to divorce.

Reassurance to Family and Friends

I have added a page called “Family and Friends” that is written to parents, family, and friends of those involved in consanguineous sex or consanguinamory (also known as consensual incest or incestuous sex.) It may also reassure consanguinamorous people themselves. There is already much material out there helping people, especially parents, deal with the sexuality of their family members or friends, except for this specific area. The more family members that are allies to full marriage equality and the rights of all adults to love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults, the better. I hope you find it helpful.

Couple Discovers They Are Half Siblings

Finding love with someone who is a right for us is not an easy thing to do. Dating casually is one thing, but when you’re looking for lasting love… to share a life with someone, the truly good matches are not so plentiful. That’s one of many reasons why consanguinamorous couples should not be torn apart by outsiders.

Consider the case of Saybartooth, who wrote at GeneticSexualAttraction.com about a relationship she had with a man who, they discovered while already together, that they was her half-brother.

I'd had my eye on him for a couple of years before we got together. If you had seen my checklist of "the perfect man" when I was younger you would have seen he checked every box on that list. Yes, there were defiantly intense emotions between us both. We would have only been together for half a year before we decided we'd have children together and start our lives with one another.

But then they discovered they had reason to believe they were half-siblings.

We waited a long time for the DNA results. And it took us even longer to make our decision and in the end we parted and he moved interstate. I've held onto this a long time now, and he decided to cut the contact. I've tried to contact him since, though he has made it clear (very rudely) that he wants nothing to do with me, or anyone else in both our families.

It's very hard, especially being in such a small town as I cannot speak to anyone about it in fear that word gets out. For all THEY know, we split up due to him moving and I just 'wasn't ready to leave'. I've had many flings and relationships since and am currently in a relationship that I beleive - and hope - may last some time. But even now, I do not feel happy. I've somehow managed to force myself to beleive that no one is as great as he. No one is as good looking, no one is as talented, and most of all, no one can make me feel and love the way he did.

It sounds to me like they would still be togther if it hadn’t been for bigoted laws and attitudes towards consanguinamory. How sad.

Good Advice For the Poly Curious

Kal Cobalt has some advice for people who have been monogamous who are considering polyamory.

Going poly because it doesn't seem like a big deal is a recipe for disaster — it is a big deal. Think of your mono or poly orientation as similar to your sexual orientation: you can experiment with it, but going against your historical orientation just because your partner wants it is unlikely to turn out well. You might feel traitorous to yourself afterward or unfairly manipulated, neither of which are good for you or your relationship.

If you’re interested, go read the whole thing.

For some people, being polyamorous or being monogamous is almost or is as much a part of their identity as being gay, heterosexual, or bisexual. A poly person like that can’t live effectively and happily as a monogamist, nor could such a monogamous person last long in a polyamorous situation. But many other people fall somewhere between. Everyone should be able to be true to themselves. Do not misunderstand me, inherently poly people can be with just one person at the moment, or with nobody, and be happy, functional people, just as there are monogamous people who can be single and be happy, functional people. But trying to stuff an inherently poly person into permanent monogamy or an inherently monogamous person who needs their partner to be monogamous into a poly situation is going to be painful and result in dysfunction.

Siblings Play Doctor

Someone found this blog searching for "husband used to play doctor with sister.” I can understand why a current partner, especially a spouse, would be concerned about their partner’s past experiences with consanguineous sex. After all, some people have difficulty accepting that their partner has any past at all, let alone that they are still in contact with someone from that past.

Most likely, there is nothing for this person to worry about. Siblings “playing doctor” is a very common thing. Actual sexual experimentation and exploration between siblings is common through puberty and beyond. If someone didn’t have a sibling, or didn’t play doctor (or any other number of games) with their sibling (or has forgotten they did), they might be concerned, but they shouldn’t be.

In some cases, siblings mature and do continue to “fool around” with each other, or even have ongoing erotic relationships. There are the rare cases in which they marry other people and keep those people in the dark as they continue on with each other, but those cases are very rare. (They would be even less rare if consanguinamorous people had the freedom to marry.)

Chances are, there’s nothing for this wife (or husband, if this is a same-sex marriage) to worry about. If she married a good man, they have open communication about their boundaries, and they are having sex regularly, it is unlikely he is having sex with anyone behind her back. There is certainly nothing wrong about him or his relationship with his sister based on the fact that they played doctor.

Adults on Trial For Consensual Sex in New Zealand

In New Zealand, a woman is now on trial for the “crime” of incest, as is her father. Since they are both on trial, who is the victim?

The pair allegedly had a sexual relationship for more than 10 years.

This sounds like love.

They met when she was almost 30 and he was in his late 40s and living in Britain.

So what is the problem? They’re consenting adults.

On the first day of the couple's trial at the Auckland District Court on Tuesday, Crown prosecutor Scott McColgan said, though they were consenting adults, if they had a sexual relationship it was “incestuous”.

I’m not familiar enough with how things work for Crown prosecutors. Did McColgan have a choice in whether or not to prosecute? Or was this someone else’s decision? The person responsible should take a look in the mirror and ask themselves why they are interfering in someone else’s love life.

He said after she tracked the man down she spent three weeks with him. When she returned to New Zealand she split with her husband then moved back to Britain.

While being divorced by her may have been painful, at least she didn’t string her husband along, which is to her credit.

She and the accused man ventually returned to New Zealand and lived in the house where the woman had lived with her husband and children.

McColgan said they appeared to be “besotted with each other”.

So why not leave them be?

After a complaint was made to police, officers searched their bedroom and found sex toys and pornography.

Who complained? Her ex? Why is it relevant that “sex toys and pornography” were found in an adult's bedroom? Is this article written by someone who has a problem with sexuality in general?

The woman's mother told the court her daughter changed “overnight” when the man arrived on the scene.

Sounds like it could be a case of Genetic Sexual Attraction.

At her daughter's 30th birthday party the man allegedly told her he wondered what it would be like to have both mother and daughter as the three danced. She was shocked by the comment.

A few months later she confronted the woman about the “unnatural” relationship.

So maybe the woman’s mother turned them in, which she could have done out of spite or jealousy. Sad.

An adult should be free to pursue their rights to love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults. Drop the charges against these two. Let them live their lives.

Personal Experiences

Someone asked at Yahoo Answers, “What are the consequences of consensual incest?”

Everyone goes eeewww.... when they hear the word incest, and incestuous couples often become social outcasts.

Not everyone goes “ewww.” Some shrug their shoulders, others get excited.

Okay, then I see something wrong with incest, IF A CHILD IS BORN. (Inbreeding)

Discredited Argument #18. This is not a reason to deny the freedom to consanguinamory.

But incest is not the same thing as inbreeding. Having sex and having children are not necessarily the same thing.

You have that right.

So if there are no physical consequences, what's wrong with having sex with a family member?

Nothing, as long as cheating is not involved.

Might there be some other consequences?

Lots of fun, and possibly more love.

Here’s a response…

When i was younger, my sister and I used to play doctor...we'd both take our clothes off and look at each other naked, explore each other and eventually we tried having sex. We both started to feel like what we were doing was wrong and stopped. A few years later once we had both developed a little more, we got curious again and we ended up having one crazy sex session. Seeing as she was now old enough to get knocked up, we both realized that what we were doing was wrong and vowed never to do it again.

Apparently they were unaware of contraception, or perhaps it was that they were unable to get it without their parents finding out.

Another response…

yeah basically me and my twin we are both in love with each other(my other twin is a girl and i'm a guy) no one in our family gets gross out with this even our friends don't have a clue that were dating and there is a lot of hidden information in the history that they don't want to explain but for me this doesn't feel wrong i know a person that is married to there own siblings and no the kids they have now are not deformed they look fine to me last time i saw them and they were perfectly normal.

Another response…

As horrible as it mite sound 2 ppl i just found out that my real parents r bro n sis. im adopted btw. Im not messed up or physically damaged actually i get a lot of guys that ask me out. And im the top of my class cuz i get all A s.

they grew up w 4 of them in the house n parents not around much. ppl think its gross. i dont see why. i turned out fine and i dont judge ppl like that ne more.

The consequences of consanguineous sex are much the same as any other sex. The differences are positive in that it is sex with someone you already love and care about and who loves and cares about you, and can be especially enjoyable due to a special bond. Usually, you already know each other well. The negative consequences are externally imposed rather than inherent: prejudice, persecution, prosecution.